Again you are looking at these comps through the lens of a traditionalist.
Would I go to see Tipp v Kerry in Munster Championship first round game even though I’ll know Tipp will probably be hammered? - Yes
Would I go to see Tipp v Laois in first round of Tailteann Cup? - No
1 Like
The template is there already… The NFL. 8 groups of 4 based on region to keep local rivalries… You’ve a league format then straight knockout/playoffs. You play a certain amount of games against X amount of other teams outside your division so teams get 12/14 games a year guaranteed and get to play teams from other provinces regularly.
2 Likes
Which is the appropriate lens to look through.
You have to work with tradition. Throwing it out for no reason is a terrible idea.
That’s why the 2001-2017 championship format was a stroke of genius in its own way.
It recognised there was an appetite for more matches and that teams did not just want to train for six months for one match. But it kept the provincial championships, it retained the on the day nature of championship matches, it retained the realistic goals of a trophy that that mid-level counties had, while at the same time expanding the championship as a whole and enabling teams who had never played each other before to do so. It opened up the championship as a better television spectacle, with Saturday night qualifiers becoming a staple. Every match still meant something. That format kept tradition but evolved it. It didn’t throw it out.
Maybe we need to advertise Quinns more widely in the weaker counties?
Of the last 12 finalists 5 have been from England. Chelsea won it in 2019 before winning the big one 2 years later. Liverpool lost a final in it before going on to win the big one 2 years later.
The Europa League is an after thought.
But it’s also the wrong comparison for a Gaelic football B competition.
A much more appropriate comparison is something like the British and Irish Cup in rugby.
The inter county system in football in never going to be egalitarian or equal . There will always be strong and weak .
Once that reality is realised then there is a basis .
2 Likes
Munster proudly won that basterd of a competition in 2’17 iirc and at the same time cost the cookies a place in the AIL final. B competitions are the tool of the devil.
It has never been the function of the championships to provide guaranteed matches for teams and players. That’s what leagues are there for. It is not designed to be fair.
The function of the championship is to provide cut throat competition that has jeopardy. It is designed so that shocks can happen. It is designed so that all matches matter. Jeopardy is what attracts spectators and general interest. It’s what creates occasions that people want to go to.
Players and managers are often the very worst people to ask about what is wrong with the championship because they will tend to want guaranteed matches. But guaranteed matches makes a shit, boring, bloated, more predictable championship. And if you have a shit, boring, bloated, more predictable championship, spectators will turn away.
Hammerings have got worse because of i) siloing teams in divisions of widely varying quality and ii) the GAA neglecting the other structural issues which promote competitiveness.
It’s not, because that had reserve teams in it. The Europa League is a much better comparison.
You’re very very definite of your opinion. It’s mostly a load of absolute shite now in my opinion and the interest and the crowds in the earlier rounds are dwindling every year. Needs a change but the two proposed are not the answer. The ‘jim mcguinness’ proposal with leagues linking with championship seeding and more knock out matches are the obvious solution imo.
2 Likes
The best comparison is the Tommy Murphy Cup, because what is proposed is the Tommy Murphy Cup rebranded.
The Tommy Murphy Cup was a national joke, at least among those who knew of its existence. Actually a lot of people didn’t know of its existence, so perhaps it was an almost national joke, a bit like Shaw’s being almost nationwide.
I wouldn’t disagree with much of that. But then every May we have the complaints from all sectors when the hammerings happen. The approach taken to preparing teams is now far more organised and professional than 20 years ago, and that inevitably further exposes the difference between those who have financial resources and a large playing pool, and those that don’t.
1 Like
Even if we accept that, do you believe that the landscape in Gaelic football now is comparable to 2004 when the Tommy Murphy Cup was started? Sligo made the first final, they were hugely competitive at the time in Connacht and in the qualifiers. Are any of the current Division 3 or 4 teams competitive consistently in their province or the qualifiers?
Yes.
Like the American football format.
One of the reasons the hammerings happen is because the GAA has consistently pandered to inter-county managers and allowed quasi-professional set ups to happen in some counties while most just don’t bother.
The quasi-professionals are siloed among themselves in Division 1. The rest are siloed into the other Divisions with the Tommy Carrs and Tomas O’Flathartas and Paul Bealins and Paul Galvins managing them.
The proposed “solution” to that is that let the quasi-professionals go it alone and permanently silo themselves away from the rest. But that means a championship with effectively five teams. And that’s shit. It’s elitist, it’s boring and it’s against everything the GAA was ever supposed to be about.
So what is the solution? Spending caps in the stronger counties on team preparation? I wouldn’t be against it, but then the complaints would be that the GAA are the only sporting organisation actively trying to lessen the chance of improvement for their top players. Could stop all spending on development squads at underage too, but when other sports are actively trying to take the best talents I’m not sure how sensible that would be either.
There is no simple answer to any of it. I reckon the Leinster championship could be about to get fairly competitive in the next few years, if that happens then much of the complaining will die away anyway.
We are where we are. None of what you say is going to change. The top level of GAA is professional in all but name. You just need to look at the caliber of people involved in backroom team to see that.
The GAA pre 90s is gone, it’s with Ring et al in the grave. Any move at attempting to reverse that would be met with resistance by those with vested interest, particularly the players who matter the most.
3 Likes
It depends what you mean by comparable.
The position of the likes of Sligo isn’t comparable. But I’d bet anything their reaction to a revived Tommy Murphy Cup would be comparable.
There wasn’t a Division 3 or Division 4 in 2004. Teams weren’t siloed away like they are now. There’s one of your answers as to why 2021 has a much different football landscape to 2004.
Look at Division 1 over the last decade. It’s been made up largely of the same six teams - Dublin, Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone, Donegal and Monaghan. Those six teams have consistent regular football against each other, every further year they get of that regular competitive football reinforces the virtuous circle. When younger players come in, they are immediately introduced to a very high standard of football that players in other counties just don’t get.
Every further year that other teams are out of that circle reinforces the negative circle for them.
On the rare occasions one of those six top teams has had a bad year and been relegated, they bounce straight back up.
Teams from outside those top six who get promoted to Division 1 more often than not go straight back down. Meath, Kildare, Roscommon, Cavan etc. have all had that experience. Galway stayed up for a while but now they’re down too.
There has been very little churn in the identity of the top teams in Gaelic football for the last decade. In a competition where you can’t sign players and a lot of counties are very comparable in terms of population and resources, you should be expecting consistent churn. You should be expecting Cork or Galway or Meath or Kildare or Down or Armagh or Derry to be breaking into that circle at different points.
The league format has played a big part in why they haven’t.
Well you can say that, but if the GAA doesn’t tackle the issue of competitiveness - and I mean across the board competitiveness - not siloed competitiveness - the organisation as a whole will go into a death spiral.
And since that rare positive move when the 2001-2017 format was introduced, every move that the GAA have made as regards tinkering with competition formats and schedules seems to bring that death spiral closer.
Regressive moves dressed as “progress” are not progress.
The wrong issues entirely are the ones being “tackled”, while the real issues that are damaging the championships continue unchecked.