Bertie -anti democratic hun

51% majority not enough for Irish unity: Ahern


51% majority not enough for Irish unity: Ahern

By Laurence White
Thursday, 20 November 2008

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne…-14070188.html

A united Ireland could not be achieved by a simple majority poll in favour of constitutional change, according to former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern.

In a previously unpublished interview, carried in today’s Belfast Telegraph, Mr Ahern said a narrow 50% plus one in favour of unification would not work.

He argued that a sizeable amount of people north and south would be required to move to a united Ireland.

The only way it can be done is if theres a sizeable amount of people on the island of Ireland, North and South, believe this is the way forward, he said.

Fifty per cent plus one is not the way to do it. That would be a divisive thing to do. Theres no point having votes to find out that youre 1 percent short or 1 percent over. Thats not the way to do it.

[quote=“north county corncrake”]51% majority not enough for Irish unity: Ahern


51% majority not enough for Irish unity: Ahern

By Laurence White
Thursday, 20 November 2008

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne…-14070188.html

A united Ireland could not be achieved by a simple majority poll in favour of constitutional change, according to former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern.

In a previously unpublished interview, carried in today’s Belfast Telegraph, Mr Ahern said a narrow 50% plus one in favour of unification would not work.

He argued that a sizeable amount of people north and south would be required to move to a united Ireland.

The only way it can be done is if theres a sizeable amount of people on the island of Ireland, North and South, believe this is the way forward, he said.

Fifty per cent plus one is not the way to do it. That would be a divisive thing to do. Theres no point having votes to find out that youre 1 percent short or 1 percent over. Thats not the way to do it.[/quote]

He’s right though.

huh? - surely if he is a democrat he should respect the vote- its like FF attitude to Nice & Lisbon - fuck what the people think we’ll do what we want

Its a pretty pointless debate really, but anyone who believes a two percent margin of victory would pave the way for a ‘united ireland’ is an idiot.

[quote=“north county corncrake”]51% majority not enough for Irish unity: Ahern


51% majority not enough for Irish unity: Ahern

By Laurence White
Thursday, 20 November 2008

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne…-14070188.html

A united Ireland could not be achieved by a simple majority poll in favour of constitutional change, according to former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern.

In a previously unpublished interview, carried in today’s Belfast Telegraph, Mr Ahern said a narrow 50% plus one in favour of unification would not work.

He argued that a sizeable amount of people north and south would be required to move to a united Ireland.

The only way it can be done is if theres a sizeable amount of people on the island of Ireland, North and South, believe this is the way forward, he said.

Fifty per cent plus one is not the way to do it. That would be a divisive thing to do. Theres no point having votes to find out that youre 1 percent short or 1 percent over. Thats not the way to do it.[/quote]

Who the fuck wants it anyway? if your girlfriend was gang raped would you want to go there again? it’s tainted, never to be the same again.

what % would you think is ok?
do you think that our nationalist brothers should be under british rule even when/if the majority of people want to be free?

I can see your point of view on this ncc but I can also see bertie’s…I would think that you would need an vast overall majority for something like this…At the end of the day 49% of the state(in theory) wouldn’t want it and this could have serious ramifications and could lead to a lot of political uncertainty and even another civil war…technically speaking you are right in saying 51% should be enough but not when it comes to something like this…

If there was a vote taken in the morning asking should we go back under british rule and rejoin the commonwealth and 51% voted yes would you happily accept this and say fair enough…

we should give the brits munter in exchange for it - most right minded people would agree to that

you would be happy anyway :smiley:

[quote=“The Puke”]I can see your point of view on this ncc but I can also see bertie’s…I would think that you would need an vast overall majority for something like this…At the end of the day 49% of the state(in theory) wouldn’t want it and this could have serious ramifications and could lead to a lot of political uncertainty and even another civil war…technically speaking you are right in saying 51% should be enough but not when it comes to something like this…

If there was a vote taken in the morning asking should we go back under british rule and rejoin the commonwealth and 51% voted yes would you happily accept this and say fair enough…[/quote]

id move

i certainly wouldnt do a FF on it & have referendums until i eventually get my way

[quote=“north county corncrake”]what % would you think is ok?
do you think that our nationalist brothers should be under british rule even when/if the majority of people want to be free?[/quote]

Well both of my brothers live in the republic so I don’t know how to answer that. Define ‘free’.

[quote=“north county corncrake”]we should give the brits munter in exchange for it - most right minded people would agree to that

you would be happy anyway :D[/quote]

They tried it once but it didnt succeed. The boys up north and in Dublin were far more welcoming!

Seriously though it can never work until you have a Unionist majority wanting it.

The one thing that gets me about all this northern talk is that both sides fail to see how similar they are. Its just hardline Irish nationalist ideology vs hardline British nationalist ideology. I’ve never once seen solid arguments for the rationale behind reunification or partion. The unionists keep farting on about a British identity that has been dead for generations and Sinn Fein can’t see past the glorius dead. What difference would it actually make? How would improve the lives of the people of the six counties? Thats what really matters, not this ‘a nation once again’ bollocks.

dont think wanting a united Ireland is a hardline ideology

its not just the case of Unionist vs nationalist - the british state is there too

id say things would be better for the nationlists who arent getting harassed, bullied,killed by the british state would think it would be better

If there was a referendum in the Republic tomorrow to create a United Ireland what way would the vote go?

Not a foregone conclusion I would have thought. Read some report lately about how much Whitehall subsidise Norn Iron per capita compared to the rest of the UK. Pretty startling, it costs them an absolute fortune.

Recessions though do tend to reawake Nationalist fervour so hard to know.

[quote=“KIB man”]If there was a referendum in the Republic tomorrow to create a United Ireland what way would the vote go?

Not a foregone conclusion I would have thought. Read some report lately about how much Whitehall subsidise Norn Iron per capita compared to the rest of the UK. Pretty startling, it costs them an absolute fortune.

Recessions though do tend to reawake Nationalist fervour so hard to know.[/quote]

in regards to the cost of the 6 counties - the cost is due to the fact that it has failed as a politcal entity

could you flesh out the last point please

[quote=“north county corncrake”]dont think wanting a united Ireland is a hardline ideology

its not just the case of Unionist vs nationalist - the british state is there too

id say things would be better for the nationlists who arent getting harassed, bullied,killed by the british state would think it would be better[/quote]

The civil rights argument and the United Ireland are not one and the same, because the demand for one can not be made on the same grounds as the demand for the other. Attaining, and protecting civil rights represents a completely different struggle to an ideological struggle to create a 32 county Irish state. Until you can provide justification for all that would involve which goes beyond our own nationalist desires, you are shaky ground. The british nationalism of the unionists is equally irrational of course, with a large dollop of paranoia thrown in for good measure, but the idiocy of much of their argument should make it easier for us to recognise the failures of our own.

the civil rights argument & the united Ireland argument are intertwined

[quote=“north county corncrake”]in regards to the cost of the 6 counties - the cost is due to the fact that it has failed as a politcal entity

could you flesh out the last point please[/quote]

It has failed as a political, social, economic entity in every sense. I couldnt see that changing much if a United Ireland was born. Our government doesnt have the money to tie a life support machine to the North at the moment imo.

Hitler, Mussolini etc extreme nationalists all rose to power when their national economies were on their knees. The Troubles in Norn Iron took place at a time when the island of Ireland was in a deep economic crisis. It was hardly a coincidence that the Peace Process picked up steam as the economic climate improved North and South.

During the Celtic Tiger era, the notion of fighting for a United Ireland or even wanting one, would have been an embarrassing option for the vast majority of people in the Republic. The rise in revisionism was noticeable in our national media as a lot of people seemed embarrassed by the fact that we became independent as a result of a bloody war.

However if the recession deepens I would expect as history has taught us a rise in nationalism in Ireland in the next few years. Even on TFK, SF somehow garner votes off supposedly intelligent people.

An interesting thesis topic to explore

Intertwined but clearly seperate. My point is that it does’nt represent an argument for reunification. Thats the stumbling block.

[quote=“KIB man”]If there was a referendum in the Republic tomorrow to create a United Ireland what way would the vote go?

Not a foregone conclusion I would have thought. Read some report lately about how much Whitehall subsidise Norn Iron per capita compared to the rest of the UK. Pretty startling, it costs them an absolute fortune.

Recessions though do tend to reawake Nationalist fervour so hard to know.[/quote]

They say the same about funding for Scotland but the reality is that the North Sea resources are invaluable to England and more than make up for subsidies.

It’s not as obvious in the 6 Counties but there’s been fuck all proper investment there from London - some small cosmetic schemes but essentially after Thatcher destroyed working class communities it’s taken them quite a while to recover. There’s patently no reason why the six counties would be any less productive than the other 27.