Bono does not legally have to pay more taxes, morally i dont think he does either as Ireland would not be materially wealthier per personif he did pay this āshareā
I donāt honestly believe that you think thatās right. My taxes donāt make much difference to the state (Iād even guess far less than Bonoās would) but I have an obvious moral obligation to pay taxes nevertheless. Furthermore if Iām going to be government policy advocate where I make it my business (and everyone elseās business) to tell the government how to spend their tax revenue then Iāll be damn sure that I contribute my share first.
Itās like me going to a Ryanair AGM next week and proposing a motion that Michael OāLearyās salary be reduced by 20%. Iād be thrown out of the place because I donāt have shares - Iāve made no contribution so Iāve no right to speak.
donāt think that argument stacks up. if bono paid his taxes here does that mean he could only complain to the irish government about African crisis and not any other government because he only paid taxes in this state? Do we not have the right to complain about the USAās envirionment policy as we donāt pay taxes there. Both are global issues and all individuals should have the right to complain about them no matter where they pay their taxes as long as they do so legally.
I too was putting together a logical argument and you didnt address it; i asked you the following question: is he entitled to arrange his affairs to have the least exposure possible , yes or no
Either he is doing something wrong or he isnt. You cant say he is entitled to this and then in a later argument say that this was wrong and makes him a hypocrit
He is asking these governments to look at the moral implications of this debt, not the same thing as him looking to save on his tax bill
How can you not see that these are one and the same thing.
The government has a balance of payments. It has income from two sources - debt repayments from poorer countries and tax income. Bono doesnāt want to pay any tax income but wants to tell the government not to collect money from poorer countries either. He complained about the lack of stadia in this country too a while back. Where does he expect this money to come from? Everyone else is the simple answer.
Thatās fine if you donād mind being selfish. If you want to tell everyone how to live their lives then itās pure hypocrisy.
By paying income tax 3 times higher than wealthy American corporations do here then I am effectively subsidising corporation tax for US multinationals and contributing hugely to the US economy.
Either way I am not telling them how to run their economy which is a differernt matter entirely. There are plenty of things Iād change about the US economy but I donāt harp on about it because itās not my place.
No - read my posts. Heās not telling them how to spend their money. Heās talking about a global solution to a global problem. If he drove an SUV and paid no car tax or duty on his fossil fuels then Iād say he was a hypocrite.
See this is what I am talking about. It is impossible to get anywhere with you. All I can say to you is to read the bloody post again. What I am saying is he is entitled to avoid tax (with all his money he has a moral obligation to give some back - thats beside the point) if he so wishes but he is not entitled to tell someone else that they should NOT do the same thing
In other words, asking western governments to abolish Third World debt equates to asking someone not to avoid tax
Look rock, i got a problem making the link that you are, because of the below:
Irelandās balance of payments is extremely healthy and he has satisfied his legal contribution to it (zero in this case), there is no moral requirement for him to contribute further
If however, Irelands economy was crippled with foreign debt and millions of peoples lives could be saved by an improved balance of payments, i would then appeal for charity, and yes i would then ask the rich people who are avoiding tax to consider donations.
I think your āselfishā comment is unfair. If you were in his position I would expect you to do the same and avoid the tax. And while i think the system sucks, i dont expect rational people to do anything other than use it to their benefit
Iām not saying that he should pay taxes to allow the government to pay off our debt. Iām saying that if he wants the government to allow other countries not to pay Ireland what they owe then he needs to keep his side of the bargain.
To me it comes down to this: If everyone had his attitude there would be far more poverty in the world, not less. So he can fuck off telling the rest of us what to do because weāre doing the right thing by the rest of the world and heās not. Irrespective of whether he finds it acceptable or not.
For a start, nobody is at risk of dying because of bonoās low tax bill.
Secondly, the government is well able to structure its legislation and fiscal policy to attain appropriate tax contributions (ie increase the tax rate, close a loophole); the third world countries do not have the power to write off their own debt
yes, by fullfilling his obligation, which we agree is legal in nature.
Can you build an urgent moral case for bono contributing tax revenue to the irish government? You see thats where there is a difference I believe, because bono can build an urgent moral case for writing the debt off. In both situations there is no LEGAL obligation, but in the latter there is a moral obligation
If you can build an urgent moral case for bono to contribite more tax to Ireland than his is lagally obliged to, I will accept defeat
At the centre of this argument (canāt believe that we are still having it) is Bono. I repeat again. He is asking the governments to do something which he will not do. In principle there is no difference between giving to Ireland and the Third World. In principle he is a hypocrite.
Youāre plainly ignoring the relationship between the two factors. As I said in my last post if everyone had Bonoās attitude then the world would be fucked. There would be no hope for ever improving the lot of those less wealthy because nobody is sharing their money in a structured manner.
I donāt know the exact relationship between tax income and government aid but it wouldnāt take a lot to make the conclusion that by opting not to give the Irish government any money then Bono is indeed reneging on a moral oblgation which ultimately costs lives.
Secondly this isnāt about whether he should pay taxes as an individual or not - he doesnāt and I disagree with him on that and like Farmer if I was as wealthy as Bono Iād make sure that my government got the same share from me that theyāre taking from people who canāt afford to pay it.
What this is really about is a guy indulging himself with a moral crusade. In that context does Bono have a moral obligation to act as he preaches? Absolutely so. Is he asking the rest of us to cover for him? Yes he is. So where does he get off telling us what to do with the money that the rest of us put in.
As I was saying earlier and as you summarised for me, Bono is not a stakeholder in the Irish government - the rest of us taxpayers are. He has ample opportunity to contribute and he has decided to opt out. Well opt the fuck out of everything else then ya prick.
It is not irrelevant bull, it highlights the differences between two things which you are saying is the same.
As i said to rock, the difference is this:
NO LEGAL OBLIGATION IN EITHER INSTANCE, BUT THERE IS AN URGENT MORAL OBLIGATION TO WRITE OFF THE DEBT. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THERE IS AN URGENT MORAL OBLIGATION FOR BONO TO CONTRIBUTE MORE TAX TO IRELAND THAN HE LEGALLY HAS TO.
Like i said to rock i will accept defeat if someone builds this case, otherwise that is the difference i see between the two situations