By that reply about Liam Dunne and Robbie Fowler you have completely missed the point and I am not going to discuss it further except to say that I do not have to justify why I think Robbie Fowler is a legend to anyone
And the fact that you go on about the lack of quality players that City have as some justification for not supporting them as mush as you used to is frankly pathetic…
Ah lads this old chestnut.
Every team has cult heroes and everyone has their idols. At Celtic we have plenty of cult heroes like Rico Annoni but I’d be the first to acknowledge they weren’t even SPL class, let alone world class. Growing up a Celtic fan only Paul McStay consistently shone through as a genuine star player. He played through the barren times (and the good at the start of his career) and turned down moves to Serie A to stay with Celtic. He is viewed as a legend and rightly so.
Other guys like Charlie Nicholas, Frank McAvennie, John Collins I don’t really regard as Celtic greats because they left the club in their prime. They were excellent players at their peak but they didn’t perform consistently for Celtic over 10 years or anything like it. That said at least they were mostly still playing top class football and playing to the best of their abilities somewhere else. The same could never be said of Robbie Fowler. He was a flash in the pan who is treated as some sort of mythological legend on Merseyside because he was a homegrown star. There is none of the same reverence for Owen who was clearly the better player and has bounced back from far more injuries with enthusiasm and desire and a competitive streak.
You can idolise Fowler all ye want but see him for what he is. He is not a great striker and his two goals last night didn’t change that. I felt embarrassed for him last night when he was interviewed after the game and asked if he was disappointed not to be playing more regularly. He said something about knowing that would be the case at Liverpool and it’s so true. Everyone knows he can’t possibly be a first pick because he doesn’t keep himself fit enough or sharp enough. He’s a wasted talent and we’ll never know if he could have been one of the greats. As it is he’s no more than a Kevin Phillips or a Michael Bridges.
Ray Houghton truly is a fool. He is fast becoming my least favourite pundit on any station. He’s not afraid to criticise referees and assistants in patronising tones (“Mr. Poll” and “our friend the assistant referee”) but he is appalling at judging himself. When Giuly was played through for the first goal he said it was “a difficult one” to say whether he was onside or not and then started talking about the “grey area”. This is after 3 or 4 replays. Then Giuly was played in and put one wide and it was “I tell you what that’s very tight.” Fucking fool. Offside is black and white issue and if you can’t call it correctly with the aid of replays then you’ve no business being a commentator in the first place.
You might point out where I said Manchester City’s lack of quality players is a justification for not supporting them. A truly pathetic riposte.
Were you not watching H&A Bandage? Or was that post during the break?
I am aware that this response goes against my earlier one but to liken Robbie Fowler to Michael Bridges is sacrilegious. I realise that it may have been made in the heat of the moment so I am giving you this chance to take it back.
I will accept that he has more in common with Kevin Phillips that Michael Bridges. Just looking at Fowler’s stats there and if you take out league cup goals (which are irrelevant) then he has a slightly inferior record to Phillips, even though Fowler played for better clubs for most of his career.
‘farmer, as for Manchester City - check out the Champions League Mathday 4 thread. Just to clarify I haven’t forgotten them, they have 4 quality players in Richards, Dunne, Barton and Trabelsi but lack pace and creativity and have a relatively toothless front pair. Like at the start of the season I predict a finish of around 12th. Hope this clarifies matters’.
This could be construed as meaning that. Are you saying that you are less of a City supporter than you were?
Says the guy who pilliored me for saying that Klose’s goals against Saudi Arabia didnt mean much…
So you were wrong with the Bridges comparison?
I would to see your stats on Phillips versus Fowler…
How can it be construed as meaning that? You asked had I forgotten about them and I gave you a brief synopsis of how they’re doing this season to show I hadn’t. There’s absolutely nothing in the post to suggest a lack of support for Manchester City or the opposite in fact. I don’t know where you’re going with this but I’ll humour you with this reply.
rocko, pagey, piedpiper, after the Celtic game tonight we’ll know whether they’re home or away first for the last 16 game. I assume you bhoys intend going to these games if possible. Do we know yet if they’ll be playing on the Tuesday or Wednesday for each leg or do we have to wait for the draw on Friday week? Should we at least be booking flights to Glasgow in the morning or should we wait? Discuss!!!
Unofficial tfk meet-up in Fraser’s at the top of O’Connell Street for the Celtic game later if anyone’s interested.
Klose’s goals against Saudi Arabia were in the World Cup. Why would anybody disregard a striker’s scoring record at the world cup? The league cup in England is an irrelevancy, therefore I have disregarded them completely. They are essentially meaningless. If we were comparing two League 2 strikers then they might have some merit, but we’re considering a supposed Liverpool “legend” here.
My Bridges comparison isn’t that far off the mark. I overestimated Bridge’s scoring one season, that’s all.
Phillips versus Fowler stats:
PlayerAppearancesGoalsAverage
Fowler3661600.43
Phillips3691710.46
I shall be in Fraser’s later.
After the Tueday/Wednesday disaster the last time I don’t want to tempt fate by booking anything. Remember as well that there will two Milan teams etc. in the draw so the dates won’t be final until the draw takes place. That said if flights to Glasgow for the home leg are a giveaway in the morning it might be prudent to book for both the Tuesday and the Wednesday. I tell you one thing I’m staying in that hostel again. 14 a night with a late bar and then takeaway cans from reception if required.
pagey tells me it’s absolutely belting down in Kobenhavn and the craic is good. A slick surface might help Celtic with Aiden, Naka and Kenny playing more so than their big, physical giants. Anyway, here’s hoping for a Celtic victory; I predict 2-0 with Miller and McGeady scoring. Talk later fookos - I’m off to get locko bhoyed up by the rebel songs I’ve been listening to for the afternoon.
See ya at half six at Fraser’s Bandage. Anyone else welcome to join us.
I see it’s been lashing rain all day alright but as far as I know the stadium has a roof which will have been closed during the day in those cicrumstances.
You are disregarding the League Cup on the basis of what? Poor quality of opposition. How many games did Fowler play of those against Premiership opposition? And anyway the Saudi Arabia argument is completely relevant. My argument was that Klose’s goals didnt count as much as they were against inferior opposition. You disagreed on that occassion. Whether they were in the World Cup or not is completely and utterly irrelevant. Therefore you have disproved the argument yourself…
You make up the rules to suit the argument…
Give us some stats on Bridges because all I seem to rememebr is him scoring a goal for Leeds in the top flight then getting injured
You have lost the plot…
The plot was lost a long time ago Farmer and I hate to tell you but you lost it.
Anyway your “arguments” -
I am disregarding the league cup because I don’t see it as a meaningful competition. It is not a pedigree tournament, generally the top teams don’t care whether they win it or not so it’s not a great barometer of achievement. I can provide you with revised statistics if you like but I might let you know in advance that it doesn’t result in a better average for Fowler than Phillips. I disregarded it on legitimate grounds and frankly you’re really, really clutching at straws if you want league cup statistics to prove what a great player Fowler was. Listen to yourself. Is that really the measure of a Liverpool legend? League cup goals? Honestly?
Secondly the Saudi Arabia argument related to the competition not the quality of the opposition. The fact that Klose scored those goals in the world cup was massively important, and I really don’t think you should be bringing this point up again. You were proved completely wrong on Klose - he is an excellent striker - and you would do well to concede that rather than dragging up old arguments.
When looking at the scoring statistics of a striker I disregard those scored in friendlies. I’m sure we both agree on that. Now the next step is to discount those scored in competitions which those teams that entered it do not try their hardest to win. In the world cup every nation taking part is focussed on that tournament - it is the biggest international tournament in the world. Likewise with the Champions League and all the domestic leagues: they are the pinnacle of each club’s ambitions at their respective levels. There is no parallel between Klose scoring goals for a first choice German team against a first choice Saudi Arabian team in the world’s foremost soccer competition and Robbie Fowler scoring goals for a second choice Liverpool side against any opposition in England’s third-most important club competition. See the truth Farmer.
Bridges got 19 league goals in that season with Leeds (1999/2000).
I hope I’ve clarified “the rules” enough for you.
But don’t you see you are still using the same criteria for both
League Cup - I dont think that teams don’t actually try. They just send out inferior teams - not on all occassions mind you. So Fowler is up against inferior opposition in the League Cup.
World Cup - Saudi Arabia are no more focused than a League One team or Man Utd reserves and in many instances have worse players
So can you see that by discounting the League Cup goals for Fowler and including the Saudi Arabia goals in defence of Klose that you are actually contradicting yourself?
This argument isn’t about Fowler anymore. I explained before that he will always be a legend in my eyes. I dispute the statistics on Phillips and particularly Bridges so I am going to research that myself…
See you in Frazers in 33 minutes…
Very disappointing performance from Celtic last night. There are excuses - qualification already secured being one of them - but that was a golden chance to improve our European coefficient and to get the away win bogey off our backs. We failed miserably at both tasks.
Strachan spoke afterwards of knowing what was wrong and knowing what was needed to fix it. I hope he’s telling the truth because there was someting terribly wrong with our defensive performance last night.
We are struggling badly against counter attacks and long balls into the box in the Champions League this season. Looking at the goals we have conceded none have come from sustained periods of pressure or possession from our opponents - teams have scored on the break, from a long punt forward, or from a set piece. When we’re defending against a United team with the ball for ages we seem to have enough time to get our shape together. Likewise in the home game against Benfica there were spells where they had the ball for quite a period of time but we looked comfortable in our shape and restricted them to long shots.
The most frustrating thing about our defensive ineptitude is we are conceding goals from areas where we should be strong. McManus and Balde are grafting centre forwards who specialise in the nuts and bolts of defending - clearing the ball from crosses and long balls. Yet last night they were beaten time and again from simple corner kicks, free kicks and kick outs. We also seemed to rely too much on Jarosik’s supposed abilities in the air. He’s not a good header of the ball, particularly in defensive situations, and we can’t afford to have him marking their aerial threats. In general play there doesn’t seem to be the communication there between McManus and Balde that there was between Balde and Caldwell so in the absence of any alternatives I’d revert to the two Scottish lads. Might be worth giving O’Dea a bit of gametime in the meantime though, to see whether he’s up to it or not but I think we really need to look at bringing in a centre half in January.
The midfield performance was equally depressing but we did suffer more from a lack of shape through the absence of Naka. McGeady was our only creative influence and I thought he was unlucky to be withdrawn. He didn’t have a brilliant game but he had to try too much on his own. At the moment the wide players in Naka and McGeady/Maloney pick themselves. Lennon and Gravesen in the middle are the two best central players but both were poor last night. We can’t outpass teams if Lennon isn’t prepared to get on the ball at the back and in the absence of Caldwell we really struggled to move it around the back 4 to create space. I still think we need an all action type midfielder - similar to Gravesen (or even Petrov) in January.
Up front Miller is lacking confidence in front of goal. He had 3 great chances that he squandered in the first half. Hopefully the form will return because if he can convert those chances into goals he’ll be lethal. His pace and movement was too much for the Copenhagen defence to handle and is invaluable in Europe. With Vennegoor of Hesselink up front and Magic as third choice we are reasonably covered in that position, though Beattie’s injuriesand Riordan’s absence together with the fluctuating form of Magic and Miller means that if Stokes is available we should snap him up.