A one trick pony ya. You say argentina are so good and Barcelona are so good yet Messi lifts Barca to a total different level. If the Argentine players are as good as you say they are how come Messi doesnât lift them to another level?
Iâll field this.
[quote=âanon7035031, post:159, topic:20564, full:trueâ]
George Best was every bit as good as Messi and possibly better than him. Different eras so always difficult to compare, but Bestâs dribbling skills, ball control, acceleration and shooting, which are Messiâs greatest attributes, were just as good. He was also two footed, unlike Messi and Maradona, faster over distance than either of them, and better in the air than either. [/quote]
âFaster over distanceâ sounds suspiciously like a horse racing type phrase. I have no idea what it means.
Weâve had a debate before about someone/something else on here but being two footed doesnât equate to being a better player. If you can anything you want with your left foot, like Maradona could, then being one footed and being so comfortable in using that foot in every orthodox and unorthodox way possible didnât hamper him at all. In fact it introduced a balletic, aesthetic beauty to his play - you knew he had to play the ball with his left foot, the defenders knew this, the ball and the defenders might all be lined up to favour his right and heâd somehow still fool everyone, coax the ball onto his left and make idiots of his opponents.
[quote=âanon7035031, post:159, topic:20564, full:trueâ]
Pele would be the only one who would rival Best in terms of overall footballing ability, and of course Ronaldo today who is a better all round footballer then Messi but a self absorbed prick. [/quote]
Absolute horseshit, and verging dangerously close to a âjack of all tradesâ argument. Being proficient at many aspects of football doesnât make one better than someone who is a master of more important aspects. Best may have been a better goalkeeper than Maradona, he may have had a better long-throw, it matters little.
[quote=âanon7035031, post:159, topic:20564, full:trueâ]
People forget or donât know that Best was already mentally finished by the 1971/72 season when he was still only 25.[/quote]
I thought you were arguing for Best? This is a very good reason to revise opinion downwards. Finished at 25 is the Robbie Fowler/Maceo Rigters badge of honour. Itâs not a celebration of fleeting greatness. This isnât music where one great album makes a man immortal. Bestâs limited production limits his greatness.
[quote=âanon7035031, post:159, topic:20564, full:trueâ]
If he had been born in England then not alone would England have won the 1966 WC, but also won in 1970 and even possibly in 1974 when Best would have been 28 and in his prime. [/quote]
I canât work out if youâre still being serious. If Maradona was English⌠if Best was English would he not have been finished at age 25 as youâve already said. If Best was English thereâs fuck all to say England would have gone past the quarter finals. His tally of 9 international goals is the same as David Connollyâs. About the same number of caps too. Spurious, unsubstantiated, hypothetical garbage.
[quote=âanon7035031, post:159, topic:20564, full:trueâ]
Another thing few know about Best is what destroyed him was not alcohol, it was Unitedâs decline from 1968 to 1972 which drove him to drink, he couldnât handle not playing for the best team in England and by 1971/72 United due to mismanagement were 3rd or 4th. [/quote]
And compare to Maradona who was part of an average Napoli squad and an average Argentina squad and made them champions. He was a part of the United team that declined, that doesnât make him greater, thatâs an argument for his lack of influence.
You want to use quotes from Pele to support your argument? Pele has long proven himself to be an imbecile unfortunately. And David Hamilton? Who the fuck is David Hamilton to get the accolade of a concluding argument on TFK.
1 Like
Well clamped.
Did someone actually say Ronaldo is a better all round player than Messi? Ffs. Messi is miles better at basically everything
1 Like
Messi doesnât lift Barca.
Barca lifts Messi. Spain won a World Cup and two European Championships using the Barca style of football that propelled Messi to the stage without Messi. Messi has won fuck all without Barcelona.
Go through all the skills that make for an elite player in any era, and list the ones where Messi is better than Ronaldo. Itâs a very short list.
He is about a million times better at dribbling and passing. There are actual facts to say he is a better finisher. Quicker at getting up to top speed. Ronaldo is faster but Messi can get up to top speed in about 2 or 3 strides. There was an article out at the time of the world cup last year with stats to suggest Messi is better at basically everything an attacking player needs by a mile. The suggestion that Ronaldo is more complete because heâs taller and more athletic is bullshit
1 Like
Finishing,first touch, passing and dribbling he is miles better. Basically the main skills.
Also in terms of vision he is streets ahead of Ronaldo.
Thanks for summarising my post mate
How come when Messi was out of sorts and injured last year they were completely muck?
Only 3 of the world cup winning spanish side started in Barcas team in the Champions league final this year.
Messi must have been out of sorts and injured any time he has donned the Argentinian jersey in the past 8 years so. Just a happy coincidence is it?
Good response.
Faster over distance is to distinguish pace over distance versus short term acceleration. Messi excels at the later, as did Maradona, but neither could leave players behind in a sprint like Best did or say Ryan Giggs more recently.
Regardless of how good their one side is, a top class defender and defense will have more trouble with a two sided player than a one sided player. In fairness to Messi he has worked hard to improve his weak side. Best was equally comfortable left or right so harder to shut down. I would argue that Messiâs dismal goalscoring and assist record at international level against top opponents is because top notch defenders will force him to his weaker side. Against shit teams in Spain and the like of Paraguay last night he looks unstoppable, because like Maradona once you let him get going on his left side he is unstoppable. Best was unstoppable on both sides.
Best played for NI FFS, at a time when like Ireland they were utter shite and he was surrounded by donkeys. If he had played for England, and it is hypothetical as all these comparison are, he would have been the elite player on their team. Watch the 1968 European Cup final and compare him to Charlton who was in his prime at the time. Although nominally a winger Best was all over the park, running the show from deep, back making tackles on his own end line, creating chance after chance through the middle and from both sides of the park, scoring a Messi type goal.
You cant compare Argentina of any era to NI, Maradona would have done no better with NI. Its also a myth that Maradona led a poor Napoli team, that was the best team that Napoli ever had by far, with the likes of Ferrera, De Napoli, Alemao, and Careca, a team as good as anything around in Europe at the time. United by contrast were an aging squad by 71/72 with no serious effort made to rebuild.
As for âjack of all tradesâ, we are talking about the worldâs elite players in the history of football, comparing the best of the best, not racehorses to donkeys. All of them excelled or excel at all aspects of the game, otherwise they wouldnât dominate opponents like they did.
[quote=âanon7035031, post:173, topic:20564, full:trueâ]
Good response.[/quote]
Thanks
[quote=âanon7035031, post:173, topic:20564, full:trueâ]
Faster over distance is to distinguish pace over distance versus short term acceleration. Messi excels at the later, as did Maradona, but neither could leave players behind in a sprint like Best did or say Ryan Giggs more recently.[/quote]
Fair enough, Best was faster over longer distances probably.
[quote=âanon7035031, post:173, topic:20564, full:trueâ]
Regardless of how good their one side is, a top class defender and defense will have more trouble with a two sided player than a one sided player.[/quote]
Thatâs so clearly untrue I shouldnât need to point it out. Maradona was better at beating players than Aiden McGeady but McGeady is more two footed. If your one side is as supernaturally good as Maradonaâs was then it transcends a catch-all rule that two footed players are better than one-footed players.
[quote=âanon7035031, post:173, topic:20564, full:trueâ]
In fairness to Messi he has worked hard to improve his weak side. Best was equally comfortable left or right so harder to shut down. I would argue that Messiâs dismal goalscoring and assist record at international level against top opponents is because top notch defenders will force him to his weaker side.[/quote]
I think Messi has more to do internationally. Having said that he has scored 5 times more goals than Best. If his record is dismal then Bestâs is what exactly? And Maradona clearly had no problems with being enormously productive at international level.
[quote=âanon7035031, post:173, topic:20564, full:trueâ]
Against shit teams in Spain and the like of Paraguay last night he looks unstoppable, because like Maradona once you let him get going on his left side he is unstoppable.[/quote]
Messi has consistently been a star in the Champions League, arguably the highest level of football in terms of concentrated talent in the top teams.
[quote=âanon7035031, post:173, topic:20564, full:trueâ]
Best was unstoppable on both sides.Best played for NI FFS, at a time when like Ireland they were utter shite and he was surrounded by donkeys. If he had played for England, and it is hypothetical as all these comparison are, he would have been the elite player on their team. Watch the 1968 European Cup final and compare him to Charlton who was in his prime at the time. Although nominally a winger Best was all over the park, running the show from deep, back making tackles on his own end line, creating chance after chance through the middle and from both sides of the park, scoring a Messi type goal.[/quote]
Thereâs still a bit of a leap to make from Best would have been elite for England versus Best would have made England win two more World Cups, one of them after heâd already given up.
The best team Napoli ever had by far, largely because of Maradona. He brought them and Argentina to new levels of success. That was the difference he made. You are excusing Best because United were in decline (a couple of years after being European champions) and NI being generally shit. Those arenât arguments to further his greatness, they are just excuses for his limited and fleeting contribution.
1 Like
Yes, but Argentina have always been in the top tier of international football, since the first WC in 1930. Whether its Maradona, Pele, Messi or Cryff or any of the other contenders for top players of all time, they were always surrounded by top tier players on a relative basis. To expect Best to raise NI to that sort of level is derisory, its like asking Christy Ring to win an All Ireland with Leitrim. The only valid comparison is when Best played for United from 1965 to 1971 when they won the League twice, the European Cup, and he was their top scorer for 5 seasons as a winger.
On the one sided versus two sided, again I am not comparing racehorses to donkeys. Defenders and defenses at the highest level have a relatively easier time against a one sided player than a two sided player. Messi is an absolute magician with the ball at his feet, but is a little bit predictable and against a well organized defense he can be shut down. This isnât speculation, the facts are at international level in the knock out stages of major competitions he has been shut down. Consistently.
Iâm not excusing Best, Iâm arguing for what he would have achieved had been been surrounded by the kind of talent Messi has with Argentina or Barcelona. Maradona no doubt was Napoliâs star player, just like Best was with United (who won a European Cup unlike Napoli), but Maradona was gone as soon as Napoli started to decline.
There are no âfactsâ to support your assertion. Itâs bizarre and indefensible. How many top level defences managed to shut down one-footed Maradona? And how successful were Bayernâs top defenders at shutting Messi down this year for example? Messi is consistently making a mockery of defenders over a far longer timeframe than Best ever managed. He is not playing against weaker defenders. He is playing against the best defenders every year. Best, well Best disappeared after his fleeting impact.
I think Messi still has work to do to make an impact internationally. But holding Best up as an example of somebody who did⌠well thatâs just nonsense. Best might have had few opportunities to make an impact with NI but he didnât make one. Absolving him of any blame for that but criticising Messi for his impact for Argentina is ridiculous double-standards. And then just forgetting completely about Maradona when it comes to an international record is nonsense.
Yeah fair point. But using his decline when United were in decline as an argument for his greatness is a bit odd.
He scored 26 goals in the season Frank OâFarrell took over, United were well in decline by then.
Bestâs decline coincided with his descent into alcoholism.
As an aside Maradona captained a Barcelona team that took a 2-0 lead to Old Trafford and completely capitulated. He failed to make any headway against a back four of Albiston, Hogg, Moran and Duxbury in both legs of the tie.
1 Like
Where have I said that Best made an impact internationally? What sort of impact would you expect him to make, playing with donkeys? Do you think Maradona or Messi would have done any better? Do you think NI would have won a World Cup had they had Maradona?
Bestâs contribution at club level was hardly fleeting, although cut short by his descent into alcoholism. He played for United for 11 years and was their top scorer for 5 seasons, in an era when a wingers role was to cross the ball. He terrorized defenses in England and Europe just as much as Messi is currently doing, while surrounded by good players but not a cast of internationals from around the globe. Sadly his career effectively ended when he should have been entering his prime. He also played in a league that was far more competitive than La Liga (then or now), so goalscoring stats are meaningless. Half the teams in La Liga wouldnât survive in the premiership or the English league back in the day.
The facts I am referring to are that, at international level, Messi has not got it done, against any top defense he has encountered. Nothing to do with George Best. When they had their opportunities Pele got it done, and Maradona got it done. For that reason and until he leads Argentina to victory, he will remain behind those two in my estimation.