Coronavirus thread - 19/10/2020 - The Day Ireland Died

That assumes a stable R number of 1.2

My criticism of introducing level 5 at the time they did was they didn’t stick to their own framework for living with covid. The whole point of level 3 is to reduce the r number, so either they didn’t introduce level 3 quick enough, or they didn’t convey the sense of urgency for compliance with level 2 or 3. Level 3 should be enough to get the r rate down relative to ICU capacity for 2 or 3 weeks with relevant compliance to the restrictions.

Only speaking from my own point of view but I had seen a complacency towards restrictions in level 2 where I live, including myself in that.

It’s a long hard game. I personally think another week or two in level 3 with a very strong messaging to say if we don’t do this we won’t have Christmas etc. Now they’d have taken a lot of shit for “scaremongering”, but they are taking a lot of shit whatever decision they make anyway.

Again that is easy for me to say, because if it goes South, I won’t have the extra deaths attributed to my actions, but I think a massive stray from the framework was unnecessary as a slight reduction in the r rate through proper compliance with level 3 was achievable.

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It was from an earlier article from July. Thought there was a better article than this but maybe not. Not sure what the underlying study was.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/07/coronavirus-deadlier-than-many-believed-infection-fatality-rate-cvd/

To be clear, because I probably wasn’t earlier, there are countless reports with very different conclusions on death rates. I’m not saying this is correct, but nor is the study saying it’s harmless likely to be correct either.

I’m not saying it is 50X flu or likely to be. But I don’t think it’s in any way clear cut to suggest it’s the same as the flu or to muddy the waters on the death rate by talking about median ages etc.

They are separate arguments that people jump to when they can’t assert that there is no increased mortality.

the comparisons to previous flu death rates are meaningless, in the extreme and serve no purpose other than to push a false/dangerous narrative.

Any of the deaths from previous flu seasons have been the upper limit of that particular season, there are no mitigation attempts at the flu other than vaccines, so the death rate for that particular flu for that particular season is the highest it could be.

With covid 19, the death rate is the lower limit that it could have been, as we don’t have a vaccine and we are doing absolutely everything in our power, relative to trying to balance other areas of life to keep the incidence down. So despite all the restrictions, almost globally to keep the incidence down and is still higher than or equal to the worst case flu (previous seasons), the death rate is kept to it’s lowest possible limit, with a gargantuan effort to keep it there.

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For the life of me I can’t see what this will achieve that level 3 and no household visits won’t?

What are we saving?

Ating Celebrations on a couch?

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We don’t know as we don’t test for flu.

it will drop the r number faster. It’s all about limiting contacts. People gather in retail etc. They are going for a hard and fast approach to slow the R. It will have the same impact but quicker (in theory), and they have the previous results from level 5 which was successful in terms of it achieved what they wanted it to achieve.

I think another couple of weeks at level 3, with the caveat that there was full compliance could have gotten the r number down to manageable levels, but again, it’s easy for me to say that as I don’t have to live with the consequences of it going wrong.

Ireland has changed forever.

cc @KinvarasPassion

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you can look at all cause mortality for flu seasons to get a comparable number. All cause mortality is the number most of the experts are looking at to get retrospective understanding of the impact of covid.

Great beauty can often spring from the most gruesome things. Just look at Rosanna Davison.

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Remember the good times.

A youth forged in fire.

More details please

You’ve said too much @Raylan

Ok guys. A lot of people seem to be using this pandemic solely as a tool to attack the GGA and to push big cycling

Grow up

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Fair play, this needed to be said. I dont appreciate the pops at LOI either to be frank.

I certainly don’t think it’s the flu but things have moved on from July even. I had never seen what you stated so was curious.

There is no point in denying that this is a shit virus. Even with 2x the mortality that is shit, with one age group in particular being impacted.

The key goes back to hospitalisations. Deaths really are divorced from them sadly as so many are iso hold: I don’t have faith that these are properly modelled.

Nolan claimed we were catching 1 in 3 cases at peak. He used testing data from the mid to end of April to justify that and the SCOPI study.

Of course what we really want to know is what the true surveillance levels were when we reached hospitalisation peak vs today. That peak was April 13th with nearly 900 and near 150 in ICU, and basically two weeks following full lockdown of March 28th. We had tested just 30k by the end of March and we had restricted testing to people with 2 symptoms. We test that in two days now and per the HSE they are finding 80% have very mild symptoms or none at all. Our positivity rose from 6% to 15% and then 19% from the second last week of March to the first week of April. Ours has risen from 2% to 7% in 4-5 weeks.

The SCOPI study he used is very flawed. Firstly it uses a narrow age band or 12-69, we now know that different age groups are likely susceptible to this. Secondly it was for just two counties and Nolan appears to be ignoring that 25% of confirmed cases now are from Dublin vs near 50% then. Thirdly, it was conducted in July. There are studies showing that antibodies can be gone within 3 months, with some asymptomatic cases not even having them. I can fully accept that
this is evolving all the time but you have to least caveat these things.

The WHO estimate that 10% of the world’s population have got Covid. Now we can say that less than 2% of Ireland have gotten it through luck/mitigation, but it is still very unlikely that our surveillance caught 1 in 3 cases in March which led to peak hospitalisations as was claimed.

If we roll back two weeks, NPHET wanted a level 5 lockdown straight away. Within 2 weeks of March 28th, we had 900 hospitalisations. Within 2 weeks of their latest demand, we had 300 (33.33% of peak) and 30 odd in ICU (nearly 20% of peak), and many of these hospitalisations are questionable (see Michael McNamara’s questions are the Oireachtas over what defines a hospital case).

I can fully accept that we are trying to keep hospitals running this time and also that there is a fear of the flu season, but there is also the reality that we had significant excess capacity available for stretching even at the height of Covid.

I struggle to have faith in the modelling when they failed in their surveillance efforts over the summer months. I struggle to have faith when we know R went below 1 pre March 28th and the full lockdown. Was it schools (now open but closed back then) that drove it below 1?

I understand that part of their efforts are focused on reducing traffic full stop; but Glynn’s Oireachtas committee appearance gave an insight to their ignorance of human behaviour and what people actually do. They were critical of just a 20% YoY reduction in traffic in September. They didn’t seem to understand the concept that many need to be on site to work and simply go to school & that many that would have taken public transport might now be driving to adhere to public health advice.

That indicated a fear from NPHET, I don’t think they really know how to control this beyond lockdowns. They wanted mandatory air quarantines in May after all. They are engaged in a game of just trying to reduce activity, but have no idea what the real drivers are.

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Cheers mate. Needed to be said

We are the truth speakers.

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