Does whiskey go off after its been open for a bit?

[Malarkey]

@glasagusban

@Malarkey

You could even find MR’s decision to use ‘whisky’ rather than ‘whiskey’ emblematic. Why? Because Waterford are making single malt rather than pot still – and pot still, made from both malted and unmalted barley, is Ireland’s most distinctive contribution, flavour wise.

Why have they done this can you explain? I thought Irish whiskey was always with an e?

Well, ‘whisky’ was used in the past by Irish distilleries. To an extent, the past has come back, so to speak. But ‘whiskey’ has been preferred for the most part over the last 70 or 80 years.

I do not know but infer that Mark Reynier, in eschewing the e, had an eye on the international market. And I was just flying a bit of a kite, because you would find it hard to blind taste Waterford as Irish whisk(e)y.

But, really, no big deal on usage. As I tried to indicate, the blending issue is central.

[glasagusban]

I would have thought the e was essential branding for an Irish whiskey for sale internationally. I can only conclude that he has produced a west-brit whiskey. Even bushmills is whiskey and that’s protestant whiskey.

[Malarkey]

@glasagusban

I would have thought the e was essential branding for an Irish whiskey for sale internationally. I can only conclude that he has produced a west-brit whiskey. Even bushmills is whiskey and that’s protestant whiskey.

‘West Brit’ might be rather harsh…?

Here is another blending effort by Waterford (have not tasted it):

Waterford - Micro Cuvee - Lomhar Single Malt Irish Whiskey

[Fagan_ODowd]

@Malarkey

@Smark

I’m not a Waterford whiskey fan at all @Mac I’ve never tasted any of their stuff, what’s come out though is that most people who are honest are saying the liquid is hugely underwhelming stuff and has a very young feel. The marketing behind the brand and the whole gimmick behind it is something to behold. Now in fairness their stuff might taste better in years to come as it matures. What I find is there is a bit of an echo chamber developed on twitter with a whiskey community of nodding heads all getting free samples of the newest thing to taste and they are all afraid as far as I can see to criticise anything for fear they will be struck off the list.

True, in large part, what you say about whiskey ‘influencers’ on social media. Most of that craic is just the hoopla brigade, minding their samples.

Then you have the flippers, 21st century gombeen men, and the lads who are now ‘mad into whiskey’, lads in their forties who did not know, five years ago, whiskey existed. There is a lot of hectic joylessness around Irish whiskey at the moment and I find the spectacle offputting and – no pun intended – dispiriting. I know lads in Kilkenny who talk about whiskey how they used to talk about BMWs and depreciation.

I really like the branding of Waterford whisky, the blue bottles, the differently shaded pastel labels, the farm specific offerings, the emphasis on a particular distillate’s evolution. Mark Reynier did a terrific job with Murray McDavid and Bruichladdich. But I wonder. The organic bottling aside, perhaps, I did not enjoy the Waterford examples tried so far. Two of them were seriously hard going. A highly knowledgeable guy I know described the Waterford style – its current early years style – as “tough to drink”. There is a ‘wallpaper paste/bare wall’ aspect to the nose and even to the palate.

Yet we are prepared to grant benefit of doubt. You are talking about three to four year old whisky. The phenomenon of wine being unyielding in youth but gorgeous in adolescence and middle age is well known. Strathisla single malt stays pretty indifferent until it gets above 20 years of age. But other distillate, at 20, can be over the top. The mysteries are a beguilement.

Waterford whisky might follow this pattern of beauty after age. There is likewise the facet that Waterford’s caskbill, from what I have read, does not emphasize sherry cask influence. I have a layman’s notion that sherry casks tend to make young distillate more approachable. Besides, the idea of releasing 3yo and 4yo distillate is a new one and quite specific to a host of Irish distilleries emerging together. The traditional idea was that distillate needed to be seven to eight years old before finding its feet.

Here, though, are a few qualms. I follow Mark Reynier and Waterford whisky on Twitter. He is narky about any indifferent reviews and referenced comment that his whisky is “too malty”. A fair bit lies within narkiness about that assessment. You could even find MR’s decision to use ‘whisky’ rather than ‘whiskey’ emblematic. Why? Because Waterford are making single malt rather than pot still – and pot still, made from both malted and unmalted barley, is Ireland’s most distinctive contribution, flavour wise.

Waterford whisky recently earned strong praise and high marks from Serge Valentin, the Robert Parker of whisky:

At Waterford, where tèireoir matters

This reaction counts as all the more notable for SV’s prior indifference to otherwise lauded Irish whiskey. And note how he puckishly remarks Waterford whisky “could as well be Scottish”. SV likes single malt that leads on notes he often describes as aspirin and chalk. Waterford fits comfortably into this style, one not high in mainstream taste.

We shall see. SV also likes single malt given to what he terms waxiness, which I take to be what age grants to chalkiness. The wallpaper paste element of Waterford may become, in time, an arbutus honey element.

Yet queries persist in my head. Here is the main one. Few people appreciate that single malts (and pot stills) are every bit as much an example of the blender’s art as Johnnie Walker Gold or Monkey Shoulder. While a single malt might be labelled 12yo, it will invariably contain, unless a cask strength bottling from an individual cask, some older malt, rounding out flavour. A 12yo single malt typically contains a small percentage of 18yo malt from the same distillery. The seller need only specify the youngest whisky in the bottle.

The example I always like to give: Springbank 21yo as so good because it contains a measure of 30yo Springbank. The distillery took Springbank 21yo off the market for a couple of years in the early 2000s because stock of their 30yo whisky had run too low to keep up the 21yo’s quality. Over the decades, distilleries acquired blending recipes for their single malts through trial and error. Equally, Redbreast 21yo pot still is known to contain pot still between 25 and 30 years old. The same point obtains.

Where is MR on this point? Think about it. By releasing farm specific bottlings as a particular year’s distillate ages, Waterford are removing the possibility of improving a single malt by blending together various vintages. The preoccupation with ‘terroir’, which disallows blending, removes one of whisky’s sovereign resources. I find it intriguing that Waterford’s organic bottling found the most favourable response among whiskey people I know:

https://www.celticwhiskeyshop.com/Waterford-The-Arcadians-Organic-Gaia-1-1

Six farms seemingly produced this single malt, making it an example of the blender’s art. I remain hugely curious about Waterford whisky. As of now, I am most curious about how they will approach in the future one of whisky’s sovereign resources.

We shall see. The mysteries are a beguilement.

Would you think it’s a coincidence that @mac didn’t care for the Red Spot either which I think you described as being different in style to other Irish whiskeys and quite tannic. You may even have described it as astringent.

[flattythehurdler]

@Malarkey

Waterford whisky recently earned strong praise and high marks from Serge Valentin, the Robert Parker of whisky

I have my suspicions (seeded powerfully by my sister who is in the literary trade) that reviews can be bought, one way or another.
May I add thanks for that post. I greatly enjoyed it, and found it highly informative.

[TheUlteriorMotive]

The Waterford lad is circling the carts.

[Fagan_ODowd]

@TheUlteriorMotive

The Waterford lad is circling the carts.

[Malarkey]

@Fagan_ODowd

@Malarkey

@Smark

I’m not a Waterford whiskey fan at all @Mac I’ve never tasted any of their stuff, what’s come out though is that most people who are honest are saying the liquid is hugely underwhelming stuff and has a very young feel. The marketing behind the brand and the whole gimmick behind it is something to behold. Now in fairness their stuff might taste better in years to come as it matures. What I find is there is a bit of an echo chamber developed on twitter with a whiskey community of nodding heads all getting free samples of the newest thing to taste and they are all afraid as far as I can see to criticise anything for fear they will be struck off the list.

True, in large part, what you say about whiskey ‘influencers’ on social media. Most of that craic is just the hoopla brigade, minding their samples.

Then you have the flippers, 21st century gombeen men, and the lads who are now ‘mad into whiskey’, lads in their forties who did not know, five years ago, whiskey existed. There is a lot of hectic joylessness around Irish whiskey at the moment and I find the spectacle offputting and – no pun intended – dispiriting. I know lads in Kilkenny who talk about whiskey how they used to talk about BMWs and depreciation.

I really like the branding of Waterford whisky, the blue bottles, the differently shaded pastel labels, the farm specific offerings, the emphasis on a particular distillate’s evolution. Mark Reynier did a terrific job with Murray McDavid and Bruichladdich. But I wonder. The organic bottling aside, perhaps, I did not enjoy the Waterford examples tried so far. Two of them were seriously hard going. A highly knowledgeable guy I know described the Waterford style – its current early years style – as “tough to drink”. There is a ‘wallpaper paste/bare wall’ aspect to the nose and even to the palate.

Yet we are prepared to grant benefit of doubt. You are talking about three to four year old whisky. The phenomenon of wine being unyielding in youth but gorgeous in adolescence and middle age is well known. Strathisla single malt stays pretty indifferent until it gets above 20 years of age. But other distillate, at 20, can be over the top. The mysteries are a beguilement.

Waterford whisky might follow this pattern of beauty after age. There is likewise the facet that Waterford’s caskbill, from what I have read, does not emphasize sherry cask influence. I have a layman’s notion that sherry casks tend to make young distillate more approachable. Besides, the idea of releasing 3yo and 4yo distillate is a new one and quite specific to a host of Irish distilleries emerging together. The traditional idea was that distillate needed to be seven to eight years old before finding its feet.

Here, though, are a few qualms. I follow Mark Reynier and Waterford whisky on Twitter. He is narky about any indifferent reviews and referenced comment that his whisky is “too malty”. A fair bit lies within narkiness about that assessment. You could even find MR’s decision to use ‘whisky’ rather than ‘whiskey’ emblematic. Why? Because Waterford are making single malt rather than pot still – and pot still, made from both malted and unmalted barley, is Ireland’s most distinctive contribution, flavour wise.

Waterford whisky recently earned strong praise and high marks from Serge Valentin, the Robert Parker of whisky:

At Waterford, where tèireoir matters

This reaction counts as all the more notable for SV’s prior indifference to otherwise lauded Irish whiskey. And note how he puckishly remarks Waterford whisky “could as well be Scottish”. SV likes single malt that leads on notes he often describes as aspirin and chalk. Waterford fits comfortably into this style, one not high in mainstream taste.

We shall see. SV also likes single malt given to what he terms waxiness, which I take to be what age grants to chalkiness. The wallpaper paste element of Waterford may become, in time, an arbutus honey element.

Yet queries persist in my head. Here is the main one. Few people appreciate that single malts (and pot stills) are every bit as much an example of the blender’s art as Johnnie Walker Gold or Monkey Shoulder. While a single malt might be labelled 12yo, it will invariably contain, unless a cask strength bottling from an individual cask, some older malt, rounding out flavour. A 12yo single malt typically contains a small percentage of 18yo malt from the same distillery. The seller need only specify the youngest whisky in the bottle.

The example I always like to give: Springbank 21yo as so good because it contains a measure of 30yo Springbank. The distillery took Springbank 21yo off the market for a couple of years in the early 2000s because stock of their 30yo whisky had run too low to keep up the 21yo’s quality. Over the decades, distilleries acquired blending recipes for their single malts through trial and error. Equally, Redbreast 21yo pot still is known to contain pot still between 25 and 30 years old. The same point obtains.

Where is MR on this point? Think about it. By releasing farm specific bottlings as a particular year’s distillate ages, Waterford are removing the possibility of improving a single malt by blending together various vintages. The preoccupation with ‘terroir’, which disallows blending, removes one of whisky’s sovereign resources. I find it intriguing that Waterford’s organic bottling found the most favourable response among whiskey people I know:

https://www.celticwhiskeyshop.com/Waterford-The-Arcadians-Organic-Gaia-1-1

Six farms seemingly produced this single malt, making it an example of the blender’s art. I remain hugely curious about Waterford whisky. As of now, I am most curious about how they will approach in the future one of whisky’s sovereign resources.

We shall see. The mysteries are a beguilement.

Would you think it’s a coincidence that @mac didn’t care for the Red Spot either which I think you described as being different in style to other Irish whiskeys and quite tannic. You may even have described it as astringent.

Interesting question, thanks. I had not thought of @Mac in that light but I see what you mean.

Of course, taste is just taste – and differences in taste are all the fun of it, because otherwise only one type of whisky would be made. I am not as transported by John’s Lane, say, as some of my friends. Lovely whiskey, yes, but I am not blown away. But I could be totally offbeam and their response might be the fairer one.

I doubt I called Red Spot “astringent”, because I have no memory of it being so. But no matter. I just felt the hype was too much. Red Spot pivots on two facets: 15yo sps and use of Marsala casks. To me, the Red Spot expression seemed underpowered – sort of muffled. Does Red Spot compare well with a natural comparison point, Bushmills 16yo, which is a nice bit cheaper as well? Not so much, to me. The same statement could be made, I reckon, as regards The Tyrconnell Madeira Cask 10yo or 15yo, with marsala influence a natural comparison to madeira influence.

So… But having such a range of pot stills available is great. I remember, like you, when Green Spot was the only pot still on the market, back in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

Waterford might yet be great. I hope it will. Three and four year old distillate is much too young for peremptory judgements. And I hope they produce pot still at some point. The current single malts are hard going, by common consent, but Serge Valentin really likes them – and he is many times more knowledgeable than I am and a trillion times more influential.

I like austere whisky – but there is no style I dislike per se – and recall mentioning Cragganmore as an example. Waterford is austere and may unfold into greatness. A bouffant overly sherried 3yo or 4yo whisky would possess almost no chance of becoming great whisky. Sherry cask influence ultimately homogenizes flavour. Waterford use vdn casks for fortified wine influence. This choice might lead to subtler flavour profiles down the line. We shall see.

But I would come back to the point about blending. I hope I am alive to see Waterford with 25 year old distillate. The point could then be whether they release a 15yo single malt, say, rounded out with older distillate. The great widely available whiskies tend to made along that line – Ardbeg 10yo, say. But the single farm origin emphasis at Waterford stands in the way, at the moment, of this approach.

[flattythehurdler]

I wonder whether you think that peated whiskey has more wriggle room as a start up? Does, or can the peaty taste cover a multitude of sins?
I’d also been told elsewhere that younger/newer whiskey should be in smaller barrels (actually, I was told the converse, that small (50liter) barrels shouldn’t be used to mature whiskey for more than 5 years or so, as they flavour the lower volume of fluid too much. This would make sense to a point, though I suspect it varies from barrel to barrel and wood to wood.

[Malarkey]

@flattythehurdler

@Malarkey

Waterford whisky recently earned strong praise and high marks from Serge Valentin, the Robert Parker of whisky

I have my suspicions (seeded powerfully by my sister who is in the literary trade) that reviews can be bought, one way or another.
May I add thanks for that post. I greatly enjoyed it, and found it highly informative.

Cheers.

There will always be issues with reviews, of course, when money and investment are at stake. Serge Valentin’s views are highly regarded and respected. And there is no doubt that a score of 90 or more does wonders for a whisky’s profile.

I know nothing of SV in personal terms… He is a wealthy Alsatian businessman who has had whisky for a hobby since the mid 1990s. I mainly enjoy his writing because it focuses on flavour. I reckon Waterford just happens to fit into the profile he tends to enjoy, a profile that has got more challenging and austere over the years.

There tends to be a more of a hoohah over scores in Jim Murray’s whisky bible. A lot of this reaction comes, I imagine, because JM is meant to be a boastful creep.

But the whisky industry is awash with puffers and pluggers, people with vested interests. It always was and this factor increased greatly via social media. I was amused by the silence in certain quarters when Waterford brought out their first releases. Quite a few bloggers and so forth, meant to be interested generally in whisky, are tightly knit into all things Midleton. Even to mention another brand on Twitter, say, is to publicize that brand.

So… Amusement.

[Malarkey]

@flattythehurdler

I wonder whether you think that peated whiskey has more wriggle room as a start up? Does, or can the peaty taste cover a multitude of sins?
I’d also been told elsewhere that younger/newer whiskey should be in smaller barrels (actually, I was told the converse, that small (50liter) barrels shouldn’t be used to mature whiskey for more than 5 years or so, as they flavour the lower volume of fluid too much. This would make sense to a point, though I suspect it varies from barrel to barrel and wood to wood.

That point about peat is a canny one… I used love buying this bottle in duty free – the only place it could be purchased – in the early to mid 1990s:

https://www.celticwhiskeyauction.com/product/connemara-cask-strength-408/

That Connemara bottling tasted terrific but the distillate used, I was later told by someone in the trade, was really young: three to five years old. And had to be so young, of course, since Cooley was founded in 1987. Whisky is actually at its peatiest starting out and decreases on this front as it ages.

Smaller casks accelerate development. This bottling, which I greatly like, is a mainstream expression of said truth:

Laphroaig Quarter Cask

[Smark]

Great posts the last few days, pity you don’t stop into this thread more often. Are there any scotches you enjoy or could recommend to forumites here? And on a separate note, are there any particular new irish distilleries whose whiskey excite you more than most? A lot of them are only bonders of course. I had a bit of Dingle batch five lately and much to my surprise thought it was lovely.

[Malarkey]

@Smark

Great posts the last few days, pity you don’t stop into this thread more often. Are there any scotches you enjoy or could recommend to forumites here? And on a separate note, are there any particular new irish distilleries whose whiskey excite you more than most? A lot of them are only bonders of course. I had a bit of Dingle batch five lately and much to my surprise thought it was lovely.

Thanks. Ah, I prefer to let people natter away and I enjoy reading their enthusiasms. I could bore for Ireland on whiskey… And probably on a lot more besides. Best to rein in myself.

A few times in this thread, I did offer, when asked, some recommendations. A search should find those posts – I think? Will have another ponder as well.

Read a really interesting article on the massive success of Proper 12 in America in today’s Sunday Times. I presume all these new distilleries hoving are based on sales projections in North America and other markets. But you would wonder whether three dozen or so new distilleries can all thrive. Somehow I doubt this scenario. My sense is that there could be a fierce amount of whiskey casks available for half nothing in six to ten years’ time. Hope I am wrong but my gut instinct says otherwise.

You mentioned bonders – and new distilleries acting as de facto bonders before their own distillate matures. This point holds true – and there is widespread concern that people do not understand they are usually drinking Bushmills of some sort when they imbibe a new distillery’s initial offerings. Dingle used Cooley distillate at first, it seems. Waterford, imterestingly, avoided this path. So did Ballykeefe in Kilkenny.

There is a long tradition of bonding whisky in Scotland. Cadenhead’s and Gordon & MacPhail would be the leading examples. The Scotch Malt Whisky Society is also a bonder of sorts. But the Irish tradition of bonding, centred on Mitchells and on a public house bottling own label whiskey, became all but extinct from the 1970s onwards.

So far as I know, the only two actual bonders to have launched in Ireland are JJ Corry and WD O’Connell. If my gut instinct is correct, and there is a lot of whiskey going abegging in some years’ time, the great beneficiaries will be bonders.

Was discussing this exact point with two friends on a night out before Christmas. You could argue that the canniest whiskey-related business plan at the moment, with so many new distilleries afoot, would be to set up as a bonder, biding your time.

Still, the problem would be discerning which distillate represents best quality. There was a massive crisis in Scottish whisky during the early 1980s. Quite a few distilleries were shut down and never reopened. Some of the casualties – Brora, Glenugie, Port Ellen – produced superb whisky. Ardbeg nearly went for good.

Which or whether, when there were loads of Scottish casks going cheap during the 1980s, buyers generally knew the terrain. Why? Because there was an established pecking order. There were Manchester United distilleries and there were Burnley distilleries. People knew they were a lot safer buying a cask of Mortlach than a cask of Blair Athol.

Such a pecking order does not exist, needless to add, for new Irish distilleries. All remains to be seen in this regard. The process will take at least a decade and likely more. Buying a cask from these new distilleries, whether as an investor or as a bonder, will in large part be blindfolded darts.

I do not know enough about the new Irish distilleries to make, flavour wise, worthwhile recommendations. Have not drank a lot of Dingle as yet and what I did drink underwhelmed me. Waterford’s situation was just discussed at length. I did buy recently a bottle of Aldi’s Ardfallen, because I saw positive comment. And Ardfallen, at that level, does feature nice depth and texture. West Cork produce Ardfallen and so you could reckon this distillery should produce good and better than good bottlings in the fullness of time.

But all up in the air as yet, as the angels slowly get their share, all over Ireland.

[TreatyStones]

@Malarkey

Was discussing this exact point with two friends on a night out before Christmas. You could argue that the canniest whiskey-related business plan at the moment, with so many new distilleries afoot, would be to set up as a bonder, biding your time

I was reading an article early about a new 8 warehouse bonding operation that has gotten planning permission in Waterford. I think Staffords was the name.

[Malarkey]

@TreatyStones

@Malarkey

Was discussing this exact point with two friends on a night out before Christmas. You could argue that the canniest whiskey-related business plan at the moment, with so many new distilleries afoot, would be to set up as a bonder, biding your time

I was reading an article early about a new 8 warehouse bonding operation that has gotten planning permission in Waterford. I think Staffords was the name.

Very interesting, thanks. I can hardly be the only one reading certain runes.

That application might be more to do, though, with warehousing whiskey. Seemingly not all the new distilleries will have room to warehouse all their own casks. So space will be needed elsewhere for maturation. Think I read a year or more ago that an applicatiion for a big whiskey warehouse aroind Athlone was turned down.

[TreatyStones]

@Malarkey

That application might be more to do, though, with warehousing whiskey. Seemingly not all the new distilleries will have room to warehouse all their own casks. So space will be needed elsewhere for maturation. Think I read a year or more ago that an applicatiion for a big whiskey warehouse aroind Athlone was turned down.

These boys sounded like they would be an outsourcing operation for the distilleries for storage, bottling and whatever else they do.

[Malarkey]

Yes, remembered correctly about Westmeath application. A Vault Storage Limited were refused permission.

[Malarkey]

@TreatyStones

@Malarkey

That application might be more to do, though, with warehousing whiskey. Seemingly not all the new distilleries will have room to warehouse all their own casks. So space will be needed elsewhere for maturation. Think I read a year or more ago that an applicatiion for a big whiskey warehouse aroind Athlone was turned down.

These boys sounded like they would be an outsourcing operation for the distilleries for storage, bottling and whatever else they do.

Correct. Could be a really shrewd move. Thanks for alerting me to this story, which I had missed:

Whiskey Solutions

[flattythehurdler]

Try the Port Charlotte 10 year old. I got a bottle off Amazon for 45 notes delivered. I think it’s lovely though I’m not a big whiskey or spirit drinker by and large.
My neighbor is though. We had some watching Scotland Vs France the other night and he immediately bought three bottles, one for his dad, one for his bro, and one for himself. Peated, but with other flavours in there too and very slightly sweeter than average. You can taste the wood from the barrel off it, in a good way.

[TheBird]

@flattythehurdler

for 45 notes delivered.

Was that Green queens or freedom tokens?