Does whiskey go off after its been open for a bit?

[flattythehurdler]

Queens shillings

[Malarkey]

Perhaps another straw in the wind for what will be good, down.the line:

Single Pot Still New Born New Make Spirit

[Smark]

@Malarkey

But you would wonder whether three dozen or so new distilleries can all thrive. Somehow I doubt this scenario. My sense is that there could be a fierce amount of whiskey casks available for half nothing in six to ten years’ time. Hope I am wrong but my gut instinct says otherwise.

There’ll be carnage. There’s a heap of new distilleries where the diggers are only going in turning the turf now. I think I read there’s 3-4 alone in construction around Kerry. It’s utter madness and has a real bang of Celtic tiger off it. There will be a trail of unpaid debts somewhere down the line, and you’re right that it’ll be canny bonders who’ll benefit once they establish whose liquor is worth salvaging from the ruins.

[Malarkey]

@Smark

@Malarkey

But you would wonder whether three dozen or so new distilleries can all thrive. Somehow I doubt this scenario. My sense is that there could be a fierce amount of whiskey casks available for half nothing in six to ten years’ time. Hope I am wrong but my gut instinct says otherwise.

There’ll be carnage. There’s a heap of new distilleries where the diggers are only going in turning the turf now. I think I read there’s 3-4 alone in construction around Kerry. It’s utter madness and has a real bang of Celtic tiger off it. There will be a trail of unpaid debts somewhere down the line, and you’re right that it’ll be canny bonders who’ll benefit once they establish whose liquor is worth salvaging from the ruins.

Snap.

Unfortunately…

[TheUlteriorMotive]

I think a lot of lads (I’ll probably do it) are buying a cask between a few lads to have an interest and if worse comes to worst will have 250 bottles of crap whiskey for Christmas presents

It’s certainly a charter for spoofers and charlatans. A lot of places don’t even offer own bonded warehouse which seems dodgy

[Malarkey]

@TheUlteriorMotive

I think a lot of lads (I’ll probably do it) are buying a cask between a few lads to have an interest and if worse comes to worst will have 250 bottles of crap whiskey for Christmas presents

It’s certainly a charter for spoofers and charlatans. A lot of places don’t even offer own bonded warehouse which seems dodgy

Have never looked into buying a cask, as an investor, because this option seems to me the ultimate in blindfolded darts. And I believe the hidden costs in getting a cask bottled can be considerable.

Anyhow, how many people who buy a cask know the distillery’s caskbill, a crucial factor in eventual quality? Type of warehouse, as broached before in this thread, is likewise central in a quieter fashion. Casks stored in a warehouse with a concrete floor supposedly mature less well than casks stored in a dunnage warehouse – but dunnage is more expensive and far less space efficient. So… We can guess what type of warehouse start ups will prefer.

A still can be fitted into a relatively compact space. Warehouses are obviously another matter. No surprise, then, about new distilleries with no provision for adjacent bonded cask storage. There is a gold rush feel…

[TheUlteriorMotive]

@Malarkey

And I believe the hidden costs in getting a cask bottled can be considerable.

Yeah - duty VAT bottling and labelling is probably four to six grand or so.

[Tierneevin1979]

Trying to duplicate something because it sounds easy can be a foolish strategy.

[flattythehurdler]

@Malarkey

Have never looked into buying a cask, as an investor, because this option seems to me the ultimate in blindfolded darts. And I believe the hidden costs in getting a cask bottled can be considerable.

It’s about a third again when you’ve added duty and bottling.

[flattythehurdler]

The other issue is that Waterfords’ outstanding marketing and subsequent stratospheric resale value have made startup whiskey a speculative bubble. The taste of the stuff is of secondary importance, if that.

[Batigol]

@Smark

It’s utter madness and has a real bang of Celtic tiger off it.

Very much so. Not sure of you follow the a, particularly the Irish ones lately, have seen crazy money exchanged. Reputable, well-aged Scotch going for half what some start-up’s 3 year old with a fancy name goes for. It’s completely unsustainable

[Smark]

What’s the A? The irish whiskey auction? I look in on that alright each month, it’s a real sellers market, in only 12 months everything has gone up a mile and the auction has really taken off.

[Batigol]

Yeah. It’s gotten much more popular than the owners were expecting. Site regularly crashes towards the end of the auction.

It’s very much a sellers market. I can’t see how these mad prices will continue though. Someone is going to get lumbered with an expensive whiskey collection that’s suddenly worth fuck all.

They might even have to drink some of it

[flattythehurdler]

God forbid

[Fagan_ODowd]

Munster Express (munsterexpress)

[Malarkey]

@Fagan_ODowd

@Malarkey

@Smark

I’m not a Waterford whiskey fan at all @Mac I’ve never tasted any of their stuff, what’s come out though is that most people who are honest are saying the liquid is hugely underwhelming stuff and has a very young feel. The marketing behind the brand and the whole gimmick behind it is something to behold. Now in fairness their stuff might taste better in years to come as it matures. What I find is there is a bit of an echo chamber developed on twitter with a whiskey community of nodding heads all getting free samples of the newest thing to taste and they are all afraid as far as I can see to criticise anything for fear they will be struck off the list.

True, in large part, what you say about whiskey ‘influencers’ on social media. Most of that craic is just the hoopla brigade, minding their samples.

Then you have the flippers, 21st century gombeen men, and the lads who are now ‘mad into whiskey’, lads in their forties who did not know, five years ago, whiskey existed. There is a lot of hectic joylessness around Irish whiskey at the moment and I find the spectacle offputting and – no pun intended – dispiriting. I know lads in Kilkenny who talk about whiskey how they used to talk about BMWs and depreciation.

I really like the branding of Waterford whisky, the blue bottles, the differently shaded pastel labels, the farm specific offerings, the emphasis on a particular distillate’s evolution. Mark Reynier did a terrific job with Murray McDavid and Bruichladdich. But I wonder. The organic bottling aside, perhaps, I did not enjoy the Waterford examples tried so far. Two of them were seriously hard going. A highly knowledgeable guy I know described the Waterford style – its current early years style – as “tough to drink”. There is a ‘wallpaper paste/bare wall’ aspect to the nose and even to the palate.

Yet we are prepared to grant benefit of doubt. You are talking about three to four year old whisky. The phenomenon of wine being unyielding in youth but gorgeous in adolescence and middle age is well known. Strathisla single malt stays pretty indifferent until it gets above 20 years of age. But other distillate, at 20, can be over the top. The mysteries are a beguilement.

Waterford whisky might follow this pattern of beauty after age. There is likewise the facet that Waterford’s caskbill, from what I have read, does not emphasize sherry cask influence. I have a layman’s notion that sherry casks tend to make young distillate more approachable. Besides, the idea of releasing 3yo and 4yo distillate is a new one and quite specific to a host of Irish distilleries emerging together. The traditional idea was that distillate needed to be seven to eight years old before finding its feet.

Here, though, are a few qualms. I follow Mark Reynier and Waterford whisky on Twitter. He is narky about any indifferent reviews and referenced comment that his whisky is “too malty”. A fair bit lies within narkiness about that assessment. You could even find MR’s decision to use ‘whisky’ rather than ‘whiskey’ emblematic. Why? Because Waterford are making single malt rather than pot still – and pot still, made from both malted and unmalted barley, is Ireland’s most distinctive contribution, flavour wise.

Waterford whisky recently earned strong praise and high marks from Serge Valentin, the Robert Parker of whisky:

At Waterford, where tèireoir matters

This reaction counts as all the more notable for SV’s prior indifference to otherwise lauded Irish whiskey. And note how he puckishly remarks Waterford whisky “could as well be Scottish”. SV likes single malt that leads on notes he often describes as aspirin and chalk. Waterford fits comfortably into this style, one not high in mainstream taste.

We shall see. SV also likes single malt given to what he terms waxiness, which I take to be what age grants to chalkiness. The wallpaper paste element of Waterford may become, in time, an arbutus honey element.

Yet queries persist in my head. Here is the main one. Few people appreciate that single malts (and pot stills) are every bit as much an example of the blender’s art as Johnnie Walker Gold or Monkey Shoulder. While a single malt might be labelled 12yo, it will invariably contain, unless a cask strength bottling from an individual cask, some older malt, rounding out flavour. A 12yo single malt typically contains a small percentage of 18yo malt from the same distillery. The seller need only specify the youngest whisky in the bottle.

The example I always like to give: Springbank 21yo as so good because it contains a measure of 30yo Springbank. The distillery took Springbank 21yo off the market for a couple of years in the early 2000s because stock of their 30yo whisky had run too low to keep up the 21yo’s quality. Over the decades, distilleries acquired blending recipes for their single malts through trial and error. Equally, Redbreast 21yo pot still is known to contain pot still between 25 and 30 years old. The same point obtains.

Where is MR on this point? Think about it. By releasing farm specific bottlings as a particular year’s distillate ages, Waterford are removing the possibility of improving a single malt by blending together various vintages. The preoccupation with ‘terroir’, which disallows blending, removes one of whisky’s sovereign resources. I find it intriguing that Waterford’s organic bottling found the most favourable response among whiskey people I know:

https://www.celticwhiskeyshop.com/Waterford-The-Arcadians-Organic-Gaia-1-1

Six farms seemingly produced this single malt, making it an example of the blender’s art. I remain hugely curious about Waterford whisky. As of now, I am most curious about how they will approach in the future one of whisky’s sovereign resources.

We shall see. The mysteries are a beguilement.

Would you think it’s a coincidence that @mac didn’t care for the Red Spot either which I think you described as being different in style to other Irish whiskeys and quite tannic. You may even have described it as astringent.

Fair play to you for having such a sharp memory… I did say “tannic”. Checked.

Basically, I was much less impressed by the bottle of Red Spot I subsequently bought than by the shot in the pub. Probably natural. A pub is for unthinking enjoyment and they were giving me the first shot. Would have been a bit churlish not to be positive.

I gave the bottle plenty of time and drank other stuff beside it, which I like to do with a significant bottle.

Not that Red Spot, by any means, is poor whiskey. Just a bit hyped.

[Bisto]

One of the papers was saying McGregor sold his stake in his whiskey company for €300m… that’s some money in a short time.

[Spidey]

Him and his manager sold their share for €130m so McGregor gets €65m if they were 50/50. His overall wealth is now meant to be £300m but I’d say that’s exaggerated

[gilgamboa]

Tasting Flights

@Mac

Another crowd doing similar to the dick macks offer… Albeit smaller miniature sizes

[Mac]

@Mac

Looks like a crowd in Carlow are following suit and going beyond Whiskey

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cc @gilgamboa