[QUOTE=“Manuel Zelaya, post: 1027413, member: 377”]I’d be of the view that Kerry were in something of a lull period between their All Ireland wins in 2000 and the 6 in a row final run from 2004-09. Kerry had sustained their heaviest every championship defeat when Meath beat them 2-14 to 0-5 in the 2001 semi final and were at a very low ebb going into 2002. There was no Declan O’Sullivan, Paul Galvin or Kieran Donaghy in 2002 and Liam Hassett and Dara O’Cinneide drawing near the end of their careers posed nowhere near the same level of threat in the forward line that, that trio would bring.
Even with all that, Kerry could and should have been out of sight by half time in that 2002 final. They had a 5-6 point lead late in the first half when Eoin Brosnan missed an easy goal chance which would have finished the game off. Fair play to Armagh, they took the chance that presented itself but Kerry and Paidi O’Se were really architects of their own demise in that final, between leaving Seamus Moynihan marooned at full back all year when he was needed out the field and the non-selection all year of Maurice Fitzgearld.[/QUOTE]
Kerry’s forward six in that final was Sean O’Sullivan, Liam Hassett, Eoin Brosnan, Mike Frank Russell, Dara O’Cinneide and Colm Cooper. That’s an excellent line up by any standards. Russell was still playing at his 2000 levels and Cooper was already a lethal threat. Off the bench they had Johnny Crowley who was a Footballer of the Year contender in 2001 and the very talented Aodhan MacGearailt. They comfortably beat reigning All-Ireland champions Galway and absolutely demolished Cork, playing football as good as any Kerry team played in any match that decade in both matches.
Hassett and O’Cinneide both started up to and including the 2005 final so were not near the end of their careers. Hassett was a bit of a workhorse but an under-rated player who improved steadily as his career progressed.
Kerry played Moynihan at full back because they needed him there. They wouldn’t have won the All-Ireland without him playing there in 2000 and they had a competent 6 in Fitzmaurice. Tom O’Sullivan’s omission was the most baffling selection looking back.
You’re forgetting that Armagh missed a penalty before half-time and played like an overawed team (probably largely due to historical reasons in that they had never won an All-Ireland) until they got the goal and realised that they had Kerry’s measure. They should have won by more in the end.
[QUOTE=“Sidney, post: 1027463, member: 183”]Kerry’s forward six in that final was Sean O’Sullivan, Liam Hassett, Eoin Brosnan, Mike Frank Russell, Dara O’Cinneide and Colm Cooper. That’s an excellent line up by any standards. Russell was still playing at his 2000 levels and Cooper was already a lethal threat. Off the bench they had Johnny Crowley who was a Footballer of the Year contender in 2001 and the very talented Aodhan MacGearailt. They comfortably beat reigning All-Ireland champions Galway and absolutely demolished Cork, playing football as good as any Kerry team played in any match that decade in both matches.
Hassett and O’Cinneide both started up to and including the 2005 final so were not near the end of their careers. Hassett was a bit of a workhorse but an under-rated player who improved steadily as his career progressed.
Kerry played Moynihan at full back because they needed him there. They wouldn’t have won the All-Ireland without him playing there in 2000 and they had a competent 6 in Fitzmaurice. Tom O’Sullivan’s omission was the most baffling selection looking back.
You’re forgetting that Armagh missed a penalty before half-time and played like an overawed team (probably largely due to historical reasons in that they had never won an All-Ireland) until they got the goal and realised that they had Kerry’s measure. They should have won by more in the end.[/QUOTE]
As I’ve said already, the Kerry forward line of 2002 was nowhere near as strong as some of the forward lines they had from 2004-09, when they had Declan O’Sullivan, Paul Galvin and Kieran Donaghy. Mike Frank Russell was really only a bit part player for most of his career. He was outstanding in 2000, but other than that of the 8 All Ireland Finals, Kerry were involved in during his career, he started 5 on the bench. Something similar with Sean O’Sullivan, he started in 2006 as well but for most of his career, he was warming the bench and many days was not even sent on. Declan O’Sullivan and Kieran Donaghy in the central positions would be streets ahead of Liam Hassett and O’Cinneide in the hierarchy of Kerry greats in those positions.
Mike McCarthy, Tom O’Sullivan or Barry O’Shea could all have played full back in 2002. In 2000, Moynihan was needed at full back because Barry O’Shea was out injured for the year and Mike McCarthy and Tom O’Sullivan were only breaking onto the team. By 2002, it was a different dynamic, Moynihan was not happy to be still at full back, and he would have been a far better option in 2002 out in the half back line instead of Johnny Sheehan or at midfield partnering Darragh O’Se. The other nonsense going on in the Kerry camp in the build up to that 2002 final was whether the home on holidays Tadhg Kennelly would be parachuted into the match day squad.
[QUOTE=“Gman, post: 1027247, member: 112”]maybe you should qualify your statement then. You stated you didnt recall many teams doing a good job man marking him. I sstated one. You requalified your initial remark. Ryan didnt play a sweeper, he usually played 3 lines of 2 in the forward line.
.
At least you didnt be a real pussy and hide behind a dumb rating like that coward @Arseboxin.
[/QUOTE]
Stage 3 rattled :rolleyes:
I have very fat fucking fingers and if you notice the dumb rating is far right. Just where you scroll down on an iPad. I had to go back and see what the fuck you were talking about you over sensitive prick. Would it validate you if I went back and Agreed or Liked or clappy handed it?
I have very fat fucking fingers and if you notice the dumb rating is far right. Just where you scroll down on an iPad. I had to go back and see what the fuck you were talking about you over sensitive prick. Would it validate you if I went back and Agreed or Liked or clappy handed it?[/QUOTE]
Sid - Tyrone’s peak was 2008 IMO, that was a brilliant Kerry side, Dooher was doing unimaginable stuff that year and Cavanagh was at his peak as were many of the team.
Only McGuigan off top of my head was a better player in 2005 than any of those still around in 2008.
Bottom line is since let’s say 2000 Tyrone won 3 All Ireland’s. Kerry 6. Dublin 2 . Donegal 1. Cork 1. Galway 1. Armagh 1. Tyrone evolved, Kerry evolved and Dublin evolved. All the others had potential to win more but never developed their game enough.
Another point - if you are going to make a case for Armagh being a great All Ireland winning team (I don’t believe they were, no better than Offaly '82 for instance), then you have to make one for Galway, who won 2 with the bones of the same side.
[QUOTE=“Manuel Zelaya, post: 1027478, member: 377”]As I’ve said already, the Kerry forward line of 2002 was nowhere near as strong as some of the forward lines they had from 2004-09, when they had Declan O’Sullivan, Paul Galvin and Kieran Donaghy. Mike Frank Russell was really only a bit part player for most of his career. He was outstanding in 2000, but other than that of the 8 All Ireland Finals, Kerry were involved in during his career, he started 5 on the bench. Something similar with Sean O’Sullivan, he started in 2006 as well but for most of his career, he was warming the bench and many days was not even sent on. Declan O’Sullivan and Kieran Donaghy in the central positions would be streets ahead of Liam Hassett and O’Cinneide in the hierarchy of Kerry greats in those positions.
Mike McCarthy, Tom O’Sullivan or Barry O’Shea could all have played full back in 2002. In 2000, Moynihan was needed at full back because Barry O’Shea was out injured for the year and Mike McCarthy and Tom O’Sullivan were only breaking onto the team. By 2002, it was a different dynamic, Moynihan was not happy to be still at full back, and he would have been a far better option in 2002 out in the half back line instead of Johnny Sheehan or at midfield partnering Darragh O’Se. The other nonsense going on in the Kerry camp in the build up to that 2002 final was whether the home on holidays Tadhg Kennelly would be parachuted into the match day squad.[/QUOTE]
Russell and Crowley at their best were exceptional players. Russell was still at his peak in 2002 and Crowley having been outstanding the previous two years couldn’t get his place. 2-17 against Galway and 3-19 against Cork show that you’re seriously underestimating the strength of that forward line. The football Kerry played in the first half of that final was as good and better as anything they produced in the '04, '06 or '07 finals and it’s a testament to Armagh that they turned it around.
[QUOTE=“caoimhaoin, post: 1027488, member: 273”]The lesson here is don’t fuck with Manuel.
Sid - Tyrone’s peak was 2008 IMO, that was a brilliant Kerry side, Dooher was doing unimaginable stuff that year and Cavanagh was at his peak as were many of the team.
Only McGuigan off top of my head was a better player in 2005 than any of those still around in 2008.
[/QUOTE]
Tyrone in 2005 had O’Neill, Mulligan and McGuigan at their best, and Canavan. None of those four were major players in 2008. It was more of a coaching achievement by Harte to win in 2008 with the likes of Tommy McGuigan, McCullagh, Penrose and McGinley taking their places and as you say Cavanagh’s move to full forward taking up much of the scoring slack. On paper there was no comparison between the 2005 and 2008 forward lines but Tyrone played football that was arguably just as good that year. I’d still say 2005 was the absolute peak. Tyrone played Kerry off the pitch in that final and should have won by 6 or 7.
Surely everybody knows that the only reason Armagh won the All Ireland in 2002 is because Joe Kernan threw his runners-up medal from 1977 against the dressing room wall at half time.
[QUOTE=“caoimhaoin, post: 1027488, member: 273”]The lesson here is don’t fuck with Manuel.
Bottom line is since let’s say 2000 Tyrone won 3 All Ireland’s. Kerry 6. Dublin 2 . Donegal 1. Cork 1. Galway 1. Armagh 1. Tyrone evolved, Kerry evolved and Dublin evolved. All the others had potential to win more but never developed their game enough.
Another point - if you are going to make a case for Armagh being a great All Ireland winning team (I don’t believe they were, no better than Offaly '82 for instance), then you have to make one for Galway, who won 2 with the bones of the same side.[/QUOTE]
Armagh also evolved and were probably a better team in 2004 and 2005 than they were in 2002. You probably have to win more than one All-Ireland to be considered a great team but in the year Armagh did it, they did it the hard way - as an individual All-Ireland, it was certainly one of the better ones. As an individual All-Ireland, it was a better one than any of the ones Kerry, Meath or Galway won in the 1996-2001 period, although Kerry’s in 2000 came close. The semi-final against Dublin and the final against Kerry were both great matches.
Galway won 2 Sid, playing some outstanding football on the big days. They had a few of the great footballers of any era playing all over the field and because of the spread of top players they were more dynamic than Armagh.
Armagh never evolved Sid. They were severely hampered when Clarke was injured and never replaced the slowing backs fast enough. McGrane was never replaced either. That’s normal of course for a small county, but it is the reality.
[QUOTE=“caoimhaoin, post: 1027526, member: 273”]Galway won 2 Sid, playing some outstanding football on the big days. They had a few of the great footballers of any era playing all over the field and because of the spread of top players they were more dynamic than Armagh.
Armagh never evolved Sid. They were severely hampered when Clarke was injured and never replaced the slowing backs fast enough. McGrane was never replaced either. That’s normal of course for a small county, but it is the reality.[/QUOTE]
Mallon, Kernan and McKeever were all regulars by 04/05 in the Armagh defence and all started the 2005 semi. Armagh’s problem was they didn’t really have anything coming through in attack round that time. Brian Mallon and Martin O’Rourke came in but were pretty average, their defence in 05 was the best in the country.
But they still had not evolved tactically.
I agree their defense was their strength. But there is always a problem when one side of the field or a line is significantly stronger than anywhere else, it means replacing en-bloc. This is the main reason Kerry are so consistent generally. Although this year they compensated by playing a defensive system with a pretty average defense.
[QUOTE=“caoimhaoin, post: 1027526, member: 273”]Galway won 2 Sid, playing some outstanding football on the big days. They had a few of the great footballers of any era playing all over the field and because of the spread of top players they were more dynamic than Armagh.
Armagh never evolved Sid. They were severely hampered when Clarke was injured and never replaced the slowing backs fast enough. McGrane was never replaced either. That’s normal of course for a small county, but it is the reality.[/QUOTE]
That Galway side would rank well ahead of Armagh as they won two Ireland’s with largely the same personnel in 1998 and 2001. Weren’t too far off winning in 2000 either, going to a replay. Fallon, Donnellan and Joyce were an exceptional trio of forwards.
What was a good era for football then? You could argue that the Mick o’dywer managed Kerry era was a poor era for football due to how poor connacht and Ulster teams were and that only 3 teams able to compete with Kerry.
You will probably say that kilkennys dominance in hurling over the past 14 years has coincided with a poor era for hurling next. You are an absolute bullshit merchant.
[QUOTE=“Sidney, post: 1027463, member: 183”]Kerry’s forward six in that final was Sean O’Sullivan, Liam Hassett, Eoin Brosnan, Mike Frank Russell, Dara O’Cinneide and Colm Cooper. That’s an excellent line up by any standards. Russell was still playing at his 2000 levels and Cooper was already a lethal threat. Off the bench they had Johnny Crowley who was a Footballer of the Year contender in 2001 and the very talented Aodhan MacGearailt. They comfortably beat reigning All-Ireland champions Galway and absolutely demolished Cork, playing football as good as any Kerry team played in any match that decade in both matches.
Hassett and O’Cinneide both started up to and including the 2005 final so were not near the end of their careers. Hassett was a bit of a workhorse but an under-rated player who improved steadily as his career progressed.
Kerry played Moynihan at full back because they needed him there. They wouldn’t have won the All-Ireland without him playing there in 2000 and they had a competent 6 in Fitzmaurice. Tom O’Sullivan’s omission was the most baffling selection looking back.
You’re forgetting that Armagh missed a penalty before half-time and played like an overawed team (probably largely due to historical reasons in that they had never won an All-Ireland) until they got the goal and realised that they had Kerry’s measure. They should have won by more in the end.[/QUOTE]
Cooper was only 18/19 weighed 9/10 stone and was playing in his first final and his first year at senior inter county.