Irish banking shares

[quote=“Bandage”]Tinnion, is this a prime example of a systems failure?

I just worry that the audit environment in Ireland isn’t rigorous enough.

If anything good comes out of this sorry mess then hopefully it’ll be auditors in general showing a greater degree of professional scepticism.[/quote]

Having been on both sides of the fence, I think that auditors can only really scratch the surface of a company. It’s all controls testing now, shure they hardly keep working papers!

What’s been intriguing me this year is how can an auditor sign off on any banks balance sheet without leaving themselves exposed to getting sued somewhere down the line.

Two questions…

What did Fitzy spend the €87 Million on? (Don’t say property)

Did Anglo lend money to Sean Quinn to buy shares in Anglo?

[quote=“balbec”]Having been on both sides of the fence, I think that auditors can only really scratch the surface of a company. It’s all controls testing now, shure they hardly keep working papers!

What’s been intriguing me this year is how can an auditor sign off on any banks balance sheet without leaving themselves exposed to getting sued somewhere down the line.[/quote]

dont they put a note in at the end to protect them from being sued?

[quote=“SHANNONSIDER**”]Two questions…

What did Fitzy spend the 87 Million on? (Don’t say property)

Did Anglo lend money to Sean Quinn to buy shares in Anglo?[/quote]

Id say you may have answered your first question with your second question. It is a possibility that the loans were issued to excercise options on Anglo stock. If so Id guess Sean Fitz has a bigger issue than being unemployed currently.

Question 2 is the million dollar question SS*. Anglo aint singing on that one yet.

Just heard Jim Power on the radio there advising the gov against bailing out Anglo, thinks the company should just be wound up. Interesting times.

I know plenty lads working in Anglo and for there sakes I hope it doesnt end in tears, but I cant see any other conclusion. I wouldnt really like to see the Gov bailing them out.

He refinanced the loans with Nationwide ever year for the last eight years. He did this for a month or so to remove the facilities from Anglos balance sheet so they wouldnt need to be reported as directors loans.

In fairness, no one in Anglo would have been able to say sorry Sean we dont think your good for it, it is a ridiculous conflict of interest. All the banks took a shellacking yesterday as a result.

Well Scummer, Id say the regulator will be gone by the end of Jan.

11 months he knew about this for and didnt even inform the government, despite the gov stepping in and guaranteeing the instition.

[quote=“dancarter”]Id say you may have answered your first question with your second question. It is a possibility that the loans were issued to excercise options on Anglo stock. If so Id guess Sean Fitz has a bigger issue than being unemployed currently.

Question 2 is the million dollar question SS*. Anglo aint singing on that one yet.

Just heard Jim Power on the radio there advising the gov against bailing out Anglo, thinks the company should just be wound up. Interesting times.

I know plenty lads working in Anglo and for there sakes I hope it doesnt end in tears, but I cant see any other conclusion. I wouldnt really like to see the Gov bailing them out.[/quote]

i have a mate in anglo too so obviously hope it stays open

who the fuck is jim power & what has he ever done to be such a prominent media figure- not once did i hear him warning people about the downturn beforehand

was this a prudent decision
http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/property/friends-first-reopens-irish-property-fund-44100.html

Good to hear Jim Power being sensitive to an absolute raft of potential job losses that would have a huge knock-on effect.

yeah, i hate all these profits before people fuckos

[quote=“north county corncrake”]i have a mate in anglo too so obviously hope it stays open

who the fuck is jim power & what has he ever done to be such a prominent media figure- not once did i hear him warning people about the downturn beforehand

was this a prudent decision
http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/property/friends-first-reopens-irish-property-fund-44100.html[/quote]

Ya Jim Power cant really be taking the moral high ground now.

The real issue is why he ever got such prominence anyways in the media. All the Banks need an economist I guess, but why the media put such stock in what they had to say was mad. They had a very obvious vested interest and this was never really questioned enough.

Jim Power is no mug though, you can be sure what he was telling the board was not the same as what he was telling the media.

And devaluing his viewpoint now, because he has been wrong in the past, is somewhat dangerous. Nobody called the current situation, of course some were more cautious and negative than others but this is a financial ‘perfect storm’. I have been in meetings recently with the founder of one of the countries biggest accountancy practises, who has been through the recesionary cycle 10+ times worldwide. He feels this is different because the Banks are also in crisis and cannot be used as a tool to ease/assist general economic conditions. The lack of liquidity in the market is at the nub of the problem.

I can understand Bandages point also about the wholesale job losses that might happen if Anglo go under. But say the gov only has 10bn to put to the recapitalisation, and Anglo requires 30% of this to stay afloat, BOI/AIB probably have twice or three times the staff levels so do you protect these companies as a priority? I dont know the answer to this question.

But I do think that even if Anglo get recapitalised there prblems wont be solved. The loan book is still sitting there to be managed out, recapitalisaion just gives them the buffer to realise the losses they will inevitable make.

Whilst it is not a wholly scientific analysis in my 8 years in banking, in 3 different Banks I have never lost a deal to BOI, a small few to AIB, but a shit load to Anglo. They did 100mln euro deals in the space of days. While I was still crucnhing the numbers putting the deal together they had the money out the door, it used to sicken us. But looking at it now, two or three days is not enough time to do full due diligence on these deals, nowhere near enough time. Ultimately I think they will pay the price for this, the model which was the envy of every Banker in the country is inherintley flawed.

One last point. IF it goes under, there will be a shit load of formerly highly paid Anglo staff floating around looking for work. Talking to my boss about this yesterday I mentioned a few fellas might be able to add something to our team and he was adamant we would not be hiring any ex anglo staff as in his words ‘they are not real bankers’. Rightly or wrongly this attitude will sit out there in the market and make life that bit more difficult for them.

[quote=“dancarter”]Ya Jim Power cant really be taking the moral high ground now.

The real issue is why he ever got such prominence anyways in the media. All the Banks need an economist I guess, but why the media put such stock in what they had to say was mad. They had a very obvious vested interest and this was never really questioned enough.

Jim Power is no mug though, you can be sure what he was telling the board was not the same as what he was telling the media.

And devaluing his viewpoint now, because he has been wrong in the past, is somewhat dangerous. Nobody called the current situation, of course some were more cautious and negative than others but this is a financial ‘perfect storm’. I have been in meetings recently with the founder of one of the countries biggest accountancy practises, who has been through the recesionary cycle 10+ times worldwide. He feels this is different because the Banks are also in crisis and cannot be used as a tool to ease/assist general economic conditions. The lack of liquidity in the market is at the nub of the problem.

I can understand Bandages point also about the wholesale job losses that might happen if Anglo go under. But say the gov only has 10bn to put to the recapitalisation, and Anglo requires 30% of this to stay afloat, BOI/AIB probably have twice or three times the staff levels so do you protect these companies as a priority? I dont know the answer to this question.

But I do think that even if Anglo get recapitalised there prblems wont be solved. The loan book is still sitting there to be managed out, recapitalisaion just gives them the buffer to realise the losses they will inevitable make.

Whilst it is not a wholly scientific analysis in my 8 years in banking, in 3 different Banks I have never lost a deal to BOI, a small few to AIB, but a shit load to Anglo. They did 100mln euro deals in the space of days. While I was still crucnhing the numbers putting the deal together they had the money out the door, it used to sicken us. But looking at it now, two or three days is not enough time to do full due diligence on these deals, nowhere near enough time. Ultimately I think they will pay the price for this, the model which was the envy of every Banker in the country is inherintley flawed.

One last point. IF it goes under, there will be a shit load of formerly highly paid Anglo staff floating around looking for work. Talking to my boss about this yesterday I mentioned a few fellas might be able to add something to our team and he was adamant we would not be hiring any ex anglo staff as in his words ‘they are not real bankers’. Rightly or wrongly this attitude will sit out there in the market and make life that bit more difficult for them.[/quote]

extremly selfish attitude

[quote=“dancarter”]Ya Jim Power cant really be taking the moral high ground now.

The real issue is why he ever got such prominence anyways in the media. All the Banks need an economist I guess, but why the media put such stock in what they had to say was mad. They had a very obvious vested interest and this was never really questioned enough.

Jim Power is no mug though, you can be sure what he was telling the board was not the same as what he was telling the media.

And devaluing his viewpoint now, because he has been wrong in the past, is somewhat dangerous. Nobody called the current situation, of course some were more cautious and negative than others but this is a financial ‘perfect storm’. I have been in meetings recently with the founder of one of the countries biggest accountancy practises, who has been through the recesionary cycle 10+ times worldwide. He feels this is different because the Banks are also in crisis and cannot be used as a tool to ease/assist general economic conditions. The lack of liquidity in the market is at the nub of the problem.

I can understand Bandages point also about the wholesale job losses that might happen if Anglo go under. But say the gov only has 10bn to put to the recapitalisation, and Anglo requires 30% of this to stay afloat, BOI/AIB probably have twice or three times the staff levels so do you protect these companies as a priority? I dont know the answer to this question.

But I do think that even if Anglo get recapitalised there prblems wont be solved. The loan book is still sitting there to be managed out, recapitalisaion just gives them the buffer to realise the losses they will inevitable make.

Whilst it is not a wholly scientific analysis in my 8 years in banking, in 3 different Banks I have never lost a deal to BOI, a small few to AIB, but a shit load to Anglo. They did 100mln euro deals in the space of days. While I was still crucnhing the numbers putting the deal together they had the money out the door, it used to sicken us. But looking at it now, two or three days is not enough time to do full due diligence on these deals, nowhere near enough time. Ultimately I think they will pay the price for this, the model which was the envy of every Banker in the country is inherintley flawed.

One last point. IF it goes under, there will be a shit load of formerly highly paid Anglo staff floating around looking for work. Talking to my boss about this yesterday I mentioned a few fellas might be able to add something to our team and he was adamant we would not be hiring any ex anglo staff as in his words ‘they are not real bankers’. Rightly or wrongly this attitude will sit out there in the market and make life that bit more difficult for them.[/quote]

Interesting stuff Dan
I’m acquainted in a social setting with one of the players in the recent Anglo debacle. A smart man but too smart it would seem. I’m pretty certain that he’ll still come out of this as a captain of industry regardless of what has happened over the past few days. 6 months ago I thought I’d put something to him regarding trying to fund a new venture- now I’d stay absolutely clear. It seems that the Anglo folk were in love with doing the deal as opposed to the intrinsics of the proposition. Like a bad salesman they bought the figures and forgot about the margin.

WBY

Which bit exactly? You made a point about Jim Power and the Anglo situation and I answered you in a genuine manner. Obviously this is not enough for you.

And NCC, in the situation we are currently in, not everyone has the safety net of worrying about the man next to them on the street. I have a mortgage and other commitments. I will be disappointed to see Anglo staff losing there jobs, but honestly, I will be blessing myself that I am not one of them, yet.

I do not work for a Bank covered by the government guarantee so I am floating out there on purely commercial basis. Unlike a civil servant like yourself.

[quote=“W.B. Yeats”] It seems that the Anglo folk were in love with doing the deal as opposed to the intrinsics of the proposition. Like a bad salesman they bought the figures and forgot about the margin.

WBY[/quote]

Nail on the head. Banks have two options, make credit decisions or make commercial decisions. In the last ten years they have been making more and more commercial decisions, this is the price.

[quote=“dancarter”]Which bit exactly? You made a point about Jim Power and the Anglo situation and I answered you in a genuine manner. Obviously this is not enough for you.

And NCC, in the situation we are currently in, not everyone has the safety net of worrying about the man next to them on the street. I have a mortgage and other commitments. I will be disappointed to see Anglo staff losing there jobs, but honestly, I will be blessing myself that I am not one of them, yet.

I do not work for a Bank covered by the government guarantee so I am floating out there on purely commercial basis. Unlike a civil servant like yourself.[/quote]

the im alrght jack attitude that you have is quite frankly disgusting

Ha ha your the only one alright Jack with your cushy civil service number. And a free fookin stadium for SRFC. Dont see you expressing any interest/concern about poor Thomas Davis.

Hypocrisy is shocking. :mad:

[quote=“dancarter”]Ha ha your the only one alright Jack with your cushy civil service number. And a free fookin stadium for SRFC. Dont see you expressing any interest/concern about poor Thomas Davis.

Hypocrisy is shocking. :mad:[/quote]

bigot davis can play in the stadium - its a muncipal stadium:rolleyes:

maybe you are too busy making greenbacks for your rich shareholders & the fat cat owners to realise that there will be savage cuts in the public service

[quote=“north county corncrake”]bigot davis can play in the stadium - its a muncipal stadium:rolleyes:

maybe you are too busy making greenbacks for your rich shareholders & the fat cat owners to realise that there will be savage cuts in the public service[/quote]

Nothing like the cuts in the private sector though.

33% reduction in numbers in my company
43% funding cut for the equality authority
the CPA abolished

etc etc etc

[quote=“north county corncrake”]33% reduction in numbers in my company
43% funding cut for the equality authority
the CPA abolished

etc etc etc[/quote]

Do I really need to start referencing job losses in the private sector or are you that thick and stubborn