Superb documentary on David Koresh and the siege at Waco last night
Channel 4 have some about of muck on but they generally some up with smashing documentaries
Fully agree farmer, i saw the whole thing, i thought it made riveting viewing.
Channel 4 do show some crap but they do seem to specialise in well made hard hitting documentaries.
Also i was surprised by how many people they got to interview who were dirctly involved in the siege, (many of the davidians and head FBI and ATF guys)
Furthermore it was a triumph for unbiased reporting/filmaking; it just presented the facts and left you to make up your own mind about it. I wasnt sure at first how well the experiment of mixing real footage with reconstructions would work (wood work 8) ) but again a smashing fusion of the two. Great documentary.
Having seen it, maybe we can discuss the Waco incident in general and i think that after, what 6 weeks, the FBI were left with no choice but to use force. Although they did seem to fook it up, because it would seem that they started the fire (although thats unproven) and they collapsed part of the building so escape became more diffiCULT (combining this with the excessive CS gas used, a recipe for disaster).
Does this go back to the Abbeylara point I was making: If you put the forces of authorty in a situation where they have to be ascertive, who is at fault if they fook it (if you can rule out that they may have fooked it up - started the fires purposely)?
so escape became more diffiCULT
Classic RBL.
I didnât see the documentary last night even though Mrs Rock encouraged me to do so - somebody had to do the groundwork for the predictions league. But I have seen a couple of documentaries/reconstructions of the events before.
I donât think it is directly comparable to Abbeylara because in Waco there were hostages/civiliians, no matter how subservient to Koresh they were. So there were innocent parties who needed protection which forced the hand of the ATF/FBI a bit.
Also there was loads of evidence of weapons stockpiling to suggest Koresh was preparing for a confrontation. This was hugely different to John Carthy who was obviously acting alone and was a threat to not many more people other than himself.
So I think the FBI were right to intervene when they did but the manner of their raid left a lot to be desired.
Missed this one. I was watching the wrestling.
You have more aliases than Billy The Kid now.
You clown.
Donât agree that the FBI had any duty to the people inside - they were there of their own free will and for free to come and go as they liked. If they wanted to stay in there then it was entirely up to them.
However the whole problem was with the arsenal he had amassed. For one thing it was entirely illegal and potentially exptremely dangerous. Therefore the initial raid was justified. They had to get the weapons out of there and arrest Koresh. However they majorly fucked up that day which had repercussions for the rest of the siege. Like going in in the first place when they knew Koresh had been tipped off. Then turning their radio off which led to needless loss of life. The initial raid had to take Koresh out and get the weapons. Once they failed in that, a siege was inevitable
I was intrigued by Koresh at the start. What were his motives? Then when that video was released with all his kids and it emerged that he was the only person allowed to have sex with the women (some underage) in there, it became clear that he was a bad bastard
How was Koresh tipped off about the initial raid? Someone rang me at the time and I missed it
Some reporters asked for directions off a guy that turned out to be one of DKâs brothers in law.
The brother went back to DK and told him, but the ATF had an under cover guy in there. The undercover guy now knew that the Davidioâs knew and he told his boss in the ATF but they went ahead anyway. I suppose if they didnt act they risked DK doing a legger.
Donât agree that the FBI had any duty to the people inside - they were there of their own free will and for free to come and go as they liked. If they wanted to stay in there then it was entirely up to them.
Ah come on Farmer - loads of them were kids. Theyâre not there by free will. Even outside that you have to consider that there was psychological entrapment of many of the adults but when there are children involved you canât say they could have left if they wanted to.
However the whole problem was with the arsenal he had amassed. For one thing it was entirely illegal and potentially exptremely dangerous. Therefore the initial raid was justified. They had to get the weapons out of there and arrest Koresh. However they majorly fucked up that day which had repercussions for the rest of the siege. Like going in in the first place when they knew Koresh had been tipped off. Then turning their radio off which led to needless loss of life. The initial raid had to take Koresh out and get the weapons. Once they failed in that, a siege was inevitable
Most of the arsenal he had gathered together was perfectly legal. The ATF were tipped off in the first place about a delivery of grenade casings - but they were legal in Texas at the time. They had every reason to be concerned about the size of the arsenal but it wasnât entirely illegal. Agreed on the fuck ups.
Another thing the ATF knew was that Koresh went jogging outside every day outside the camp perimeter. It would have been simple to grab him there and take him away but then it might not have looked so dramatic for the reporters. Also, Koresh had been questioned before about attempted murder and had been civilised and peaceful then - they could have tried the same approach.
The tip-off was as BRBL described it - indicative of all the problems with the raid that the reporters blew it.
Incorrect. According to the sherriff who was interviewed last night non-automatic weapons are legal, but to hold automatic weapons you need special liscenses etc
Look the arsenal he had amassed was ridiculous, i mean they out muscles 70 agents, (killed four of them and seriously injured 22 of them) on day one. They didnt do that with hand guns and pistols, they had m16âs and AK47âs. Fookin crazy shit, even when you consider they were tipped off, they must be mental as fook to start firing like they did. I accept your point re women and children (however the FBI did try to negotiate their release repeatedly), but like i said Koresh didnt hold these lads (70 of them!!!) on his own, Jesus it was crazy shit the more i think of it. How can these âpeacfulâ people turn so mental in the space of a few minute (between the time the tip off and the confrontation occurred), rock?
Donât get me wrong - I said at the start that I thought the FBI needed to intervene - Iâm only disputing how they went about it, which I think everyone will agree on.
The facts of the arsenal are that a UPS guy delivered a load of grenade casings to the property and alerted the ATF because he thought it was suspicious. The grenade casings were legal but the ATF thought there was enough to be concerned about and on that fact they were obviously right. I think itâs clear that they were preparing themselves for a siege, just a reflection of the gun culture in the United States that so much of what they gathered together was legal.
Regarding the violence from Koreshâs followers it is clear that they were psychologically exploited by Koresh. They were motivated also by the botched job by the ATF who made the situation far more aggressive than it needed to be.
What a disaster by the ATF. The whole point of their intial attack was that it was going to be a surprise. Then after they found out that DK knew about them the boss still went ahead with it!!
Semi-automatics are legal but when ATF agent went undercover he found that DK had been buying semi-auto guns and changing them into automatics (which you need a special license for in Texas).
To listen to that woman Katherine (i think) talk about him was scary. He totally brain-washed them and had 14 kids from all the women in the cult. Had sex with girls as young as 14. Total sicko.
Channel 4 do some great documentaries about cults. They had one on last year about âThe Familyâ which was another huge cult back in the 60/70s.
Rock, you just ignored my point. The arsenal was NOT legal. As page said it was not legal to hold automatic weapons, so it is not indicative of the gun culture. You cant trivialise the fookin weapons he head, look at the damage they did
dont knock it till you try it
I didnât ignore your point or trivialise the wapons. I claimed that the majority of his arsenal was legal - I still think that was the case but Iâll accept otherwise if someone can prove it. The point I was making that the trigger for the suspicion was a legal purchase of grenades which is a bit fucked up.
Speaking of trivialsingâŚ
End of the World Cult Channel 4 now.
Not much to go probably but itâs cracking viewing. Just on a break at the moment. Some lad predicted 31 October 2007 to be the end of the world and a Channel 4 camera crew spent the lead-up to that date living with them. Suffice to say theyâre nuts the lot of them.