Herr McDowell announced details of the new justice bill he is going to put before the Dil yesterday afternoon.
The main introductions are:
[list]
[]7 days detention for questioning on some cases
[]No more right to silence
[*]The opinion of a Garda to decide on bail applications
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First of all he wants this to be passed before the election. There isnāt enough time to debate it properly so either he wonāt get it through and heāll blame the opposition for crime figures or heāll get it through with restricted debate time - which better not happen given the civil liberties at stake.
The 7 days detention is ridiculous. At the moment itās 3 days for serious questions and that can be extended when thereās enough evidence to charge someone properly. The Gardai reckon that people can sit silent for 3 days but that 7 days would be enough to break them. Cynics might suggest it might also give the bruises time to heal.
The big objection is of course the move away from the assumption of innocence that 7 days detention removes. If youāre held for questioning for 7 days then released without charge well then you have a fairly serious grievance there Iād have said.
The right to silence is paramount in our legal system. The idea that a jury can infer guilt from somebodyās decision to remain silent is appalling. Think about someone who is brought into custody drunk or mentally unstable. Theyād be well advised to say nothing but now when that decision is used to imply guilt thereās a big problem.
As Iāve said elsewhere before I have big problems with blurring of lines between a judge and a jury or a judge and the Gardai. The Garda have a vested interest in a conviction, therefore they should not be relied upon as impartial adjudicators of guilt.
Thats c0ckpiss of the highest order. I totally agree with you Rocko. Although Im sitting in work here with some people who cant get there thick heads around it.
The Gardai dont make the law they are there to uphold it. For them to have the power to be able to deciede on bail applications makes a mockery of the legal system. The right to remain silent also cannot be waived, e.g. if someone of low intelligence is brought in under these new proposals the can be twisted and manipulated into giving the gardai exactly what they want. 3 days without evidence in my opinion is even too long for someone to be held.
It will do the exact opposite of that. It will result in a queue of people to go into prison on tenuous convictions meaning existing prisoners will have to be released to make room.
Farmer - do you agree with me or agree with McDowell?
Flano made the point on the right to silence better than I could. There are plenty of distressed people brought in and questioned on crimes. Itās the more vulnerable people who are exploited if they feel they have to speak to the Garda when they are not in a position to do so.
What are the opposition saying on this? I bet they donāt have the balls to disagree for fear that McDowell will destroy them in the media. By saying theyāre happy to let the criminals win etc etc. I expect itāll be pushed through before the election.
I think itās a disgrace by the way. You canāt deny everyone in the country their civil liberties because thereās an upsurge in gang crime in Dublin and Limerick. Heās one dangerous fooker though. If that latest opinion poll is accurate then FF will have to look elsewhere for coalition support and thatāll be a relief.
Saw Jim OāKeefe from FG supporting it in theory last night but lamenting āwhere was it two years agoā? Brandan Howlin said something similar and threw away a comment about its content. I swear if I hear another opposition member say that a government action is āthe last sting of a dying waspā then Iāll scream
Iām not sure about the right to silence issue. If these people are distressed or drunk it is unlikely that they will remain silent. So if you look at non distressed people - why would they remain silent? Unless they had something to hide imo. I do accept that with that I am assuming absolute credibility with the cops which given the Dean Lyons case is a big ask. For instance can you imagine a Nationalist giving time to the RUC years ago?
[quote=farmerinthecity ]
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Iām not sure about the right to silence issue. If these people are distressed or drunk it is unlikely that they will remain silent. So if you look at non distressed people - why would they remain silent? Unless they had something to hide imo.
I think thats an awfully big presumption. Remaining silent is a very important right in our legal system and has to be protected. Attempts to assume guilt based on silence gets us into very dangerous territory.
I am not disputing what happened but you seem to be overly focusing on the negative side of the guards which is similar to a style used by a tabloid journalist
beating 14 year olds to death
massive coruption in donegal
mismanaging evidence a paedophile case
handing evidence back to MI5 after they bombed Dublin
paying witnesses to falsely accuse people
Not to mention the Curtain warrant fiasco and the allegations being made now by Ian Bailey
The extent of the corruption and ineptitude within the Gardai is worrying to the extent that any measure such as this to give them any more discretionary powers is dangerous.
Any opinions on this? Presumably many of the contributors here are in the mid twenty age bracket, and presumably we all know someone who has joined the Gardai. I know a few, and to be honest not all of them would inspire confidence. Decent people yes but unsuccessful at other things(eg college) and last resort was Templemore. Gotta cover myself and say some of them are top class too, but obviously its the other extreme that concerns me.
Always seemed strange to me how people can be trained for such a position of responsibilty in just 18 months, with very little in the way of academic achievement.
IMO McDowellās bill is extreme, but what to do? We canāt shout stop everytime someone wants to take action. This society has problems, whether we like it or not. And not just the high profile murders and drugs rackets aside, the number of robberies in my locality(which as Bandage will testify is very rural) is frightening. Criminal gangs from Dublin mostly, seemingly fearless of the law.
McDowellās bill may not be the answer but something will have to change.