Yeah I made that point 30 posts ago.
If you are in the west, at this moment the words “stop the war”, “anti-war” and “peace” are now totally empty.
The same words mean something if you are a member of the public in Russia because Russia started this war and those words in Russia thus take a different meaning. In Russia those words signal that you understand what Putin is doing is evil and you want him to withdraw.
But in the west they are now words of surrender to evil.
The fact is, there IS a war and Russia will not stop until it is defeated, and war, in one form or another, will not stop until Russia is defeated. Instead of “stop the war” and “peace” platitudes, what is needed is weapons – every weapon the west can get into Ukraine, and, I am afraid, our weapons.
Putin has threatened Finland and Sweden with “military consequences”. Now he says there must be no nucler weapons in Europe anywhere but in Russian controlled territory.
For years people like me invoked Hitler when we described the threat Putin posed. Until last week we were laughed at. Now everybody is comparing him to Hitler.
Were people saying “stop the war”, and imploring “peace” on the following dates?
September 4th, 1939?
June 23rd, 1941?
June 28th, 1942?
June 5th,1944?
April 29th, 1945?
Because peace – no war – on any of those dates, and any in between, would have meant capitulation to Hitler.
Why is it different now? We compare Putin to Hitler but now say we must not fight him? Nuclear weapons is not an answer. The west has nuclear weapons too. We used them to win the Second World War. Some people say that was justified. I don’t know if it was. But the fact is they were used.
So what are we to say? That any two bit threatening of nuclear weapons by Putin, or Xi, or whoever, means capitulation to tyranny? For the rest of time?
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So then it becomes a matter for both sides needing this war to be short and swift. Who holds the biggest vantage point?
There’s also genocide in Palestine and Yemen but let’s just ignore those because muslim lives clearly don’t matter.
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It’s grand to say Vladimir Putin “has already lost this war” on the premise that even if he wins it Russia will be bogged down for years in a country that hates him and Russia.
But that isn’t good enough for the unknowable amount of innocent Ukrainians, and maybe innocent people in Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland and maybe even elsewhere who are currently alive but who will be slaughtered as a result of Putin waging this war that Russia may eventually lose.
Saying “Putin has already lost this war” is empty when you are not the target of it. Yet.
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By who? Sid blithely says stuff like “NATO should bomb it”. Who is NATO? Which NATO country is going to decide to do this? What is Russia going to do in response? If any country does bomb it that’s an attack on Russia by a NATO member, Russia responds and then all of NATO is obliged to join the conflict. You now have a massive war between NATO (nuclear) and Russia (nuclear), with Russia overmatched and more likely to use nuclear arms first.
I think such glib and simplistic suggestions are unhelpful and show a complete disregard for human life.
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Utterly empty words.
There is war. Human life is being extinguished.
In this situation, you have a choice between giving in to tyranny and not giving in to it.
You have a choice about which human lives you want to save most. Our lives or their lives.
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Agree rating.
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I disagree. I think open war between all of NATO and Russia - which is what you are proposing - would lead to a far worse outcome and far more dead. You’re practically proposing nuclear war.
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If enough people took that attitude hitler would have ruled all of Europe.
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That’s just what we’re talking about, keep up. The forum is at war, you need to pull up your socks, no joke.
Ideally it would be bombed by Ukraine. I note however that Putin has roped in other countries to attack Ukraine. Belarus could not conceivably view Ukraine as a threat, other than that it is an example of democracy in action. Why is Putin allowed get other countries to help but Ukraine isn’t?
Ideal scenario would be to blow the road to shit, trap the convoy for a few days, get aerial capabilities in from Turkey and then Ukraine attacks it themselves.
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Also @Cheasty has made a fair point about the loss of human life - Russia is probably planning the liquidation of an entire class or layer of Ukrainian society. Who knows how many murders that would involve. It’s now also looking that he might end up having to repatriate/liquidate/murder most of the population of Kiev.
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You don’t know how many lives will be extinguished in this war if the west does not fight. But you assume it won’t be many.
You are starting from an assumption that Putin will not level Kyiv and Kharkiv and elsewhere.
You are starting from an assumption that Putin will not commit genocide.
You ignore that Putin has branded all of Ukraine as Nazi as a justification for a potential genocide. And that if he is serious about Ukraine being part of Russia - and he is - it will require de-population of Ukraine - which means genocide.
You started from an assumption that if Ukraine had the same status as Finland, Putin would be satisfied with that.
You ignore that Putin’s red lines now include Finland and Sweden being in NATO and nuclear weapons anywhere in the west.
You assumed that Putin was negotiating in good faith with a view to peace.
So you’ll forgive me if I don’t think much of your assumptions and your Mary Poppins style worldview.
Minsk is as Russian as Moscow FFS.
I agree fully. The last thing we want is this war escalating.
It’s the hypocrisy of the west which drives me mad, are the same people calling for Western forces to bomb Israeli and Saudi military forces? No, complete and utter hypocrties. Warmongers to a man.
It’s ok to fully accept Russia are in the wrong here but at the same time not wanting things to escalate and also acknowledging the role NATO have played and the complete hypocrisy from Western states on this.
The Russian defence ministry is warning residents in Kyiv to leave their homes as it plans to strike targets in the Ukrainian capital, Russian state news agency Tass reports.
In a statement issued on Tuesday afternoon, the defence ministry says their forces are preparing to launch “high-precision strikes” against “Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) and the 72nd Center for Information and Psychological Operations (PSO)“ in Kyiv.
We urge Ukrainian citizens involved by Ukrainian nationalists in provocations against Russia, as well as Kiev residents living near relay stations, to leave their homes.
Would you ever fuck off with your shite.
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“It’s your fault if you die because you stayed in your city and refused to flee to Poland”
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