Russia Vs Ukraine (Part 1)

Talking to the Russian people is the only way out of this hell
Misha Glenny
Sunday March 13 2022, 12.01am GMT, The Sunday Times
As the former communist states descended into economic chaos and war raged in Yugoslavia in 1993, I wrote a series of talks for the BBC called Loss of Innocence. It concluded with a warning: the West must provide structured economic assistance to Russia, like the Marshall Plan that put Germany back on its feet after the Second World War. Failure to do so would turn Russia into “a psychopathic giant” with nuclear weapons.

Instead, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, we encouraged the free-for-all transition to a free-market economy aptly christened “gangster capitalism”. Thirty years on, the giant has awoken to start its bloody rampage, in large part because we didn’t provide that assistance.

Russia’s barbaric invasion of Ukraine has already taken us to the gates of hell. Western officials are now gaming the possibility of a nuclear escalation. Still a remote prospect, but not inconceivable.

I hope they are also gaming the peace. Learning the lessons of history has never been more important. This moment will be as important historically as the Treaty of Versailles and the Yalta agreement.

The world is still suffering or recovering from the Covid-19 pandemic. Vladimir Putin’s huge gamble in Ukraine threatens a wider European and even a world conflict while sinking a stake into the heart of the global economy. The invasion has triggered numerous sub-dramas, each of which could descend into further violence, whether in the western Balkans, the Middle East and north Africa or east Asia.

With crises breaking out on so many fronts, it is hard to think strategically. But if the world is to avoid a wild spiral of uncontrolled conflicts and economic trauma, not to mention accelerating climate change, then governments need to be thinking seriously not only about what happens in the next six months but about how they respond to Moscow after the war is over, whether Russia wins or not.

“Globalisation has shifted on its axis,” says Rafal Rohozinski, founder of the Ottawa-based SecDev Group, which combines cyberanalysis with political intelligence. “Everything from the banking system to finance and logistics is being reordered. It’s the end of globalisation and the start of a new splinter world with its attendant chaos and uncertainties.”

As the former communist states fell into economic chaos and war raged in Yugoslavia in 1993, it was apparent that the West needed to provide economic assistance to Russia, like the post Second World War Marshall Plan

Managing this requires both the West and China to tread very carefully. After all, an imperfect peace at the end of the Cold War is how we got here. So what does the West do next?

First, we need to understand the Russian leader’s true purpose. “Putin has assumed that the time is ripe to overturn US-led global dominance,” explains Mark Medish, who was chief Russia adviser at the Treasury and the National Security Council in the Clinton administration. “This has long been his goal.”

Other authoritarian leaders almost certainly agree with Putin, including those in Beijing who have bridled under US moral tutelage and alleged double standards. Medish concludes that the chaos of the Trump presidency, the disarray of Europe, capped by Brexit and the authoritarian leanings in Hungary and Poland, and most recently the US withdrawal from Afghanistan “have bolstered Putin’s belief about the decline and fall of the West — and his decision to go for broke now”.

So Putin has laid down an existential challenge to the West. This is a zero-sum game that the Russian leader cannot afford to lose. Hence his apparent readiness to raise the stakes last week with the appalling bombing of Mariupol and the use of thermobaric weapons. This escalation brings greater destruction but it also suggests the Russian president is closer to defeat.

If Putin does lose, it opens up real opportunities. Convinced that Putin has overplayed his hand and will fall, Anthony Barnett, the author of Taking Control!, an analysis of American democracy after Trump and the pandemic, argues that “Putin’s defeat must be turned into a victory for democracy in Russia and Belarus as well as in Ukraine and a path for their renewal”.

The US and Europe’s biggest hope is for Ukraine to inflict a humiliating defeat on Russia’s military — no longer a fantasy but a real possibility, as the American political thinker Francis Fukuyama has argued. But it is Russians themselves, whether oligarchic and military malcontents or popular unrest, who must bring Putinism to an end.

If Putin is Russia’s problem, Russia is the West’s problem. With the horrors of Ukraine unfolding before our eyes, it is difficult to muster any sympathy for the Russians. Yet everyone now agrees that Putin has gone full Stalin. He orders the slaughter of civilians; he has protesters arrested and beaten up; he has clamped down on all independent media; and, tellingly, he humiliates his closest advisers in public.

If we concede he is a dictator, it follows that he is not representative of Russia and the Russian people. The West needs to embrace Russians with an intensity and sincerity hitherto unknown.

Western leaders should begin by mentioning at every opportunity that our quarrel is not with the Russian people but with its ruling clique. So far this has been missing from Joe Biden’s speeches. If our horror at the atrocities perpetrated by the Russian military tips over into a general Russophobia, we will lose the peace before the Ukrainians have won it.

The need to prepare Russians for the moment without Putin, which will be one of profound uncertainty, fear and chaos, is born of naked self-interest. The Americans did not launch the Marshall Plan in western Europe after the Second World War just out of the goodness of their hearts. They did it to create a huge consumer market for American goods and to consolidate their position as unchallenged leader of the western alliance.

The West will have to assist in putting the Russian economy back on its feet as it recovers from the devastating impact of sanctions (this is aside, of course, from the more pressing need to help in the rebuilding of Ukraine). Not to do so will sow the seeds of future conflict. Imposing punitive conditions on a great power will repeat the mistake of Versailles in 1919 — which Hitler exploited to great effect in his rise to power.

But the prize is worth it. Nurturing a Russia sympathetic to the West will reduce the seductive power of populists around the world. Putin has been the inspiration for many of these movements. He dazzled Donald Trump, who bows to Putin’s genius and vision as he does to no other.

Putin also considered Brexit a huge Russian success because it fragmented the West. Britain was the only country that belonged to the Anglophone Five Eyes intelligence network and the European Union. Putin believes he helped cut those vital links, weakening western security structures.

A strong, democratic Russia will also diminish the global influence of China. Here the US must resist the temptation to exploit any temporary discomfort that Beijing might experience. If the US and China do not collaborate in meeting the challenge of climate change, we will all end up losing.

There is still no guarantee that the West and Ukraine will come out of this on top. The war may well continue for some time. Until it is over, there will be a threat of catastrophic escalation. But if we avoid the worst, we will have a unique opportunity to restore faith in multilateral institutions and processes.

Conventional war and the pandemic have already inflicted immense damage on humanity. Western arrogance that followed the victory in the Cold War has not strengthened democracy but led to a more dangerous and capricious world. We are closer to a nuclear conflict than at any time since the Cuban missile crisis in the early 1960s. To restore some degree of stability, a large dose of humility and a sober reading of history will do the West a power of good.

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Why would the West force China to do this to Ukraine???!!

If Beijing enters this then the fabled three bed semi-d will not only need an attic conversion WFH office, it’ll need a bunker in the garden as well.

Cheers. The forum is in your debt!

That’s a very weak essay by Misha Glenny. It’s basically a fantastical platitude with a completely wrong reading of history as a final paragraph.

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'Hon our lads and lassies

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I genuinely have no idea what you are on about ??

Sanctions on china will destroy the world economy. An Xi knows this. If they support its headong to all out war the west vs russia and china. Hopefully it doesnt come to this

Shur you were a great man for putin

Possible Outcomes of the Russo-Ukrainian War and China’s Choice - U.S.-China Perception Monitor

March 12, 2022

The Russo-Ukrainian War is the most severe geopolitical conflict since World War II and will result in far greater global consequences than September 11 attacks. At this critical moment, China needs to accurately analyze and assess the direction of the war and its potential impact on the international landscape. At the same time, in order to strive for a relatively favorable external environment, China needs to respond flexibly and make strategic choices that conform to its long-term interests.

Russia’s ‘special military operation’ against Ukraine has caused great controvsery in China, with its supporters and opponents being divided into two implacably opposing sides. This article does not represent any party and, for the judgment and reference of the highest decision-making level in China, this article conducts an objective analysis on the possible war consequences along with their corresponding countermeasure options.

I. Predicting the Future of the Russo-Ukrainian War

  1. Vladimir Putin may be unable to achieve his expected goals, which puts Russia in a tight spot. The purpose of Putin’s attack was to completely solve the Ukrainian problem and divert attention from Russia’s domestic crisis by defeating Ukraine with a blitzkrieg, replacing its leadership, and cultivating a pro-Russian government. However, the blitzkrieg failed, and Russia is unable to support a protracted war and its associated high costs. Launching a nuclear war would put Russia on the opposite side of the whole world and is therefore unwinnable. The situations both at home and abroad are also increasingly unfavorable. Even if the Russian army were to occupy Ukraine’s capital Kyiv and set up a puppet government at a high cost, this would not mean final victory. At this point, Putin’s best option is to end the war decently through peace talks, which requires Ukraine to make substantial concessions. However, what is not attainable on the battlefield is also difficult to obtain at the negotiating table. In any case, this military action constitutes an irreversible mistake.

  2. The conflict may escalate further, and the West’s eventual involvement in the war cannot be ruled out. While the escalation of the war would be costly, there is a high probability that Putin will not give up easily given his character and power. The Russo-Ukrainian war may escalate beyond the scope and region of Ukraine, and may even include the possibility of a nuclear strike. Once this happens, the U.S. and Europe cannot stay aloof from the conflict, thus triggering a world war or even a nuclear war. The result would be a catastrophe for humanity and a showdown between the United States and Russia. This final confrontation, given that Russia’s military power is no match for NATO’s, would be even worse for Putin.

  3. Even if Russia manages to seize Ukraine in a desperate gamble, it is still a political hot potato. Russia would thereafter carry a heavy burden and become overwhelmed. Under such circumstances, no matter whether Volodymyr Zelensky is alive or not, Ukraine will most likely set up a government-in-exile to confront Russia in the long term. Russia will be subject both to Western sanctions and rebellion within the territory of Ukraine. The battle lines will be drawn very long. The domestic economy will be unsustainable and will eventually be dragged down. This period will not exceed a few years.

  4. The political situation in Russia may change or be disintegrated at the hands of the West. After Putin’s blitzkrieg failed, the hope of Russia’s victory is slim and Western sanctions have reached an unprecedented degree. As people’s livelihoods are severely affected and as anti-war and anti-Putin forces gather, the possibility of a political mutiny in Russia cannot be ruled out. With Russia’s economy on the verge of collapse, it would be difficult for Putin to prop up the perilous situation even without the loss of the Russo-Ukrainian war. If Putin were to be ousted from power due to civil strife, coup d’état, or another reason, Russia would be even less likely to confront the West. It would surely succumb to the West, or even be further dismembered, and Russia’s status as a great power would come to an end.

II. Analysis of the Impact of Russo-Ukrainian war On International Landscape

  1. The United States would regain leadership in the Western world, and the West would become more united. At present, public opinion believes that the Ukrainian war signifies a complete collapse of U.S. hegemony, but the war would in fact bring France and Germany, both of which wanted to break away from the U.S., back into the NATO defense framework, destroying Europe’s dream to achieve independent diplomacy and self-defense. Germany would greatly increase its military budget; Switzerland, Sweden, and other countries would abandon their neutrality. With Nord Stream 2 put on hold indefinitely, Europe’s reliance on US natural gas will inevitably increase. The US and Europe would form a closer community of shared future, and American leadership in the Western world will rebound.

  2. The “Iron Curtain” would fall again not only from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea, but also to the final confrontation between the Western-dominated camp and its competitors. The West will draw the line between democracies and authoritarian states, defining the divide with Russia as a struggle between democracy and dictatorship. The new Iron Curtain will no longer be drawn between the two camps of socialism and capitalism, nor will it be confined to the Cold War. It will be a life-and-death battle between those for and against Western democracy. The unity of the Western world under the Iron Curtain will have a siphon effect on other countries: the U.S. Indo-Pacific strategy will be consolidated, and other countries like Japan will stick even closer to the U.S., which will form an unprecedentedly broad democratic united front.

  3. The power of the West will grow significantly, NATO will continue to expand, and U.S. influence in the non-Western world will increase. After the Russo-Ukrainian War, no matter how Russia achieves its political transformation, it will greatly weaken the anti-Western forces in the world. The scene after the 1991 Soviet and Eastern upheavals may repeat itself: theories on “the end of ideology” may reappear, the resurgence of the third wave of democratization will lose momentum, and more third world countries will embrace the West. The West will possess more “hegemony” both in terms of military power and in terms of values and institutions, its hard power and soft power will reach new heights.

  4. China will become more isolated under the established framework. For the above reasons, if China does not take proactive measures to respond, it will encounter further containment from the US and the West. Once Putin falls, the U.S. will no longer face two strategic competitors but only have to lock China in strategic containment. Europe will further cut itself off from China; Japan will become the anti-China vanguard; South Korea will further fall to the U.S.; Taiwan will join the anti-China chorus, and the rest of the world will have to choose sides under herd mentality. China will not only be militarily encircled by the U.S., NATO, the QUAD, and AUKUS, but also be challenged by Western values and systems.

III. China’s Strategic Choice

  1. China cannot be tied to Putin and needs to be cut off as soon as possible. In the sense that an escalation of conflict between Russia and the West helps divert U.S. attention from China, China should rejoice with and even support Putin, but only if Russia does not fall. Being in the same boat with Putin will impact China should he lose power. Unless Putin can secure victory with China’s backing, a prospect which looks bleak at the moment, China does not have the clout to back Russia. The law of international politics says that there are “no eternal allies nor perpetual enemies,” but “our interests are eternal and perpetual.” Under current international circumstances, China can only proceed by safeguarding its own best interests, choosing the lesser of two evils, and unloading the burden of Russia as soon as possible. At present, it is estimated that there is still a window period of one or two weeks before China loses its wiggle room. China must act decisively.

  2. China should avoid playing both sides in the same boat, give up being neutral, and choose the mainstream position in the world. At present, China has tried not to offend either side and walked a middle ground in its international statements and choices, including abstaining from the UN Security Council and the UN General Assembly votes. However, this position does not meet Russia’s needs, and it has infuriated Ukraine and its supporters as well as sympathizers, putting China on the wrong side of much of the world. In some cases, apparent neutrality is a sensible choice, but it does not apply to this war, where China has nothing to gain. Given that China has always advocated respect for national sovereignty and territorial integrity, it can avoid further isolation only by standing with the majority of the countries in the world. This position is also conducive to the settlement of the Taiwan issue.

  3. China should achieve the greatest possible strategic breakthrough and not be further isolated by the West. Cutting off from Putin and giving up neutrality will help build China’s international image and ease its relations with the U.S. and the West. Though difficult and requiring great wisdom, it is the best option for the future. The view that a geopolitical tussle in Europe triggered by the war in Ukraine will significantly delay the U.S. strategic shift from Europe to the Indo-Pacific region cannot be treated with excessive optimism. There are already voices in the U.S. that Europe is important, but China is more so, and the primary goal of the U.S. is to contain China from becoming the dominant power in the Indo-Pacific region. Under such circumstances, China’s top priority is to make appropriate strategic adjustments accordingly, to change the hostile American attitudes towards China, and to save itself from isolation. The bottom line is to prevent the U.S. and the West from imposing joint sanctions on China.

  4. China should prevent the outbreak of world wars and nuclear wars and make irreplaceable contributions to world peace. As Putin has explicitly requested Russia’s strategic deterrent forces to enter a state of special combat readiness, the Russo-Ukrainian war may spiral out of control. A just cause attracts much support; an unjust one finds little. If Russia instigates a world war or even a nuclear war, it will surely risk the world’s turmoil. To demonstrate China’s role as a responsible major power, China not only cannot stand with Putin, but also should take concrete actions to prevent Putin’s possible adventures. China is the only country in the world with this capability, and it must give full play to this unique advantage. Putin’s departure from China’s support will most likely end the war, or at least not dare to escalate the war. As a result, China will surely win widespread international praise for maintaining world peace, which may help China prevent isolation but also find an opportunity to improve its relations with the United States and the West.

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I think you have me mixed up with someone else.

Maybe.

This is wonderful news.

What’s happening to the poor innocent people of Ukraine is sick and my heart goes out to them.

The narrative being spun here tho that the Ukrainian leadership/elites are the bastion of democratic free Europe is beyond ludicrous.

The far right and neo nazis have had a huge foothold in Ukrainian society, running around unchallenged by police or politicians. There’s some links to suggest Zelensky was profiting from these Nazis groups with accusations that his off shore accounts received payments from far right protagonists.

The fact that Zelensky appears in the pandora papers is worrying enough and despite his anti corruption talk for the last few years he was clearly up to his bollix in no good. The anti corruption chatter and him overturning the Ukrainian court to re-enforce anticorruption laws that were found unconstitutional, was of course solely to get US money via the IMF… The fact that there’s tonnes of evidence linking the Ukrainian far right paramilitaries to the US also makes for a nice square circle.

Ukraine has consistently been ranked at the bottom of the corruption scale, has oligarchs with hands in pies everywhere and has swapped Russian money for US money with the added imposition of austerity for good measure and the loss of many national resources… Hunter Biden says hello also

The US’ hands are all over this … They’ve played on Ukrainian greed and corruption and fear and goaded Russia into destroying itself and the cost of ordinary Ukrainians. The US has been pushing the Ukraine towards the west bit by bit since 2004 and this was after they convinced Ukraine to give up it’s nuclear weapons and that in return they and others would protect their border. Zelensky has himself been an autocrat and the endless US backing has only emboldened him …he has walked Ukraine right into this slaughter. At the end of the day Ukraine has continually failed EU membership assessment / standards for a reason, it’s corrupt as fuck and no where near an open democracy… It’s the far right holy land of Europe.

It’s an awful mess. 2 million displaced, thousands dead and poor Russian kids in that too. All because the US want to fuck Russia and the sociopath who runs Russia is more than willing to oblige.

The deranged lunatic on here will keep spinning his yarn about democracy tho… Because all he wants is a cause, he’s not interested in the consequences or who dies as a result.

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I think you may have conflated events

You back using the INTERNET again mate?

Was it ever feasible for Ukraine to keep those?

Some comeback in fairness

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He’s back and using it to “do his own research” by the looks of things.

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