@Wrigley Field[/USER] , have you anything further to add to the @[USER=183]Sidney[/USER] & @[USER=377]Manuel Zelaya debate on Australian wicket keepers?
He’s in two minds about it.
Healy the best of the three with the gloves, followed by Haddin & Gilchrist. Haddin a better batsman than Healy.
I was comparing the scorecards from Gilchrist’s four Ashes tours against Haddin’s four Ashes tours and they make for interesting reading. Haddin has now scored more Ashes runs than Gilchrist, 1234 in 18 tests at an average of 42.55. Gilchrist scored 1,083 in 20 tests at an average of 45.12.
Gilchrist scored 3 Ashes centuries at Edgbaton in 2001, Sydney in 2003 and Perth in 2006.
At Edgbaston in 2001, Australia won by an innings, they were 336/5, already 42 runs ahead of the 294 England posted when Gilchrist came to the crease. Gilchrist scored 152.
His next century at Sydney in 2003, was in a dead rubber when Australia were already 4-0 up.
When he posted his 57 ball century in the 2nd innings at Perth in 2006, Australia were 365/5 when he came to the crease, 394 runs ahead in the Test Match.
It was seldom that Australia were under and great pressure when Gilchrist came into bat at 7, and I can’t recall too many occasions he was every called upon to make hard runs. The one Ashes series where they did need him to produce key runs lower down the order was in 2005 and he failed to so. He scored 181 at an average of 22.6
Just looking at this series alone, Australia were in a bit of a hole every time Haddin came out to bat first innings, in Brisbane Australia were 100/5 when Haddin came to the crease, he scored 94. In Adelaide, they were on 257/5 and he put on 118. In Perth, they were on 143/5 and he put on 55 during a 100+ stand with Steve Smith. At the MCG, they were on 112/5 and he top scored on 65 and was last man out to minimise the first innings deficit to 51.
[quote=“Manuel Zelaya, post: 879509, member: 377”]Healy the best of the three with the gloves, followed by Haddin & Gilchrist. Haddin a better batsman than Healy.
I was comparing the scorecards from Gilchrist’s four Ashes tours against Haddin’s four Ashes tours and they make for interesting reading. Haddin has now scored more Ashes runs than Gilchrist, 1234 in 18 tests at an average of 42.55. Gilchrist scored 1,083 in 20 tests at an average of 45.12.
Gilchrist scored 3 Ashes centuries at Edgbaton in 2001, Sydney in 2003 and Perth in 2006.
At Edgbaston in 2001, Australia won by an innings, they were 336/5, already 42 runs ahead of the 294 England posted when Gilchrist came to the crease. Gilchrist scored 152.
His next century at Sydney in 2003, was in a dead rubber when Australia were already 4-0 up.
When he posted his 57 ball century in the 2nd innings at Perth in 2006, Australia were 365/5 when he came to the crease, 394 runs ahead in the Test Match.
It was seldom that Australia were under and great pressure when Gilchrist came into bat at 7, and I can’t recall too many occasions he was every called upon to make hard runs. The one Ashes series where they did need him to produce key runs lower down the order was in 2005 and he failed to so. He scored 181 at an average of 22.6
Just looking at this series alone, Australia were in a bit of a hole every time Haddin came out to bat first innings, in Brisbane Australia were 100/5 when Haddin came to the crease, he scored 94. In Adelaide, they were on 257/5 and he put on 118. In Perth, they were on 143/5 and he put on 55 during a 100+ stand with Steve Smith. At the MCG, they were on 112/5 and he top scored on 65 and was last man out to minimise the first innings deficit to 51.[/quote]
Excellent research there Manuel, Haddin has been outstanding in this series.
As an aside, Healey was an insufferable prick, loathed by most who played him and he’s an awful commentator, another reason to turn the sound off on Channel 9 and put on the radio with ABC Grandstand.
Not sure where England go after this, will they actually consider sacking Cook as captain? What are the alternatives, I certainly can’t see any.
Sorry to see Kallis gone, probably the most complete cricketer in recent times.
The Australia / SA series in Feb should be interesting and while Australia will be confident, their batting will be exposed again. The battle between both attacks should be good though, assuming Harris is fit and Johnson continues his form.
Alex Doolan has been called into the Australian squad as cover for Shane Watson, who may not play. Looks like James Faulkner will replace Ryan Harris also.
[quote=“Fitzy, post: 879673, member: 236”]Excellent research there Manuel, Haddin has been outstanding in this series.
As an aside, Healey was an insufferable prick, loathed by most who played him and he’s an awful commentator, another reason to turn the sound off on Channel 9 and put on the radio with ABC Grandstand.
Not sure where England go after this, will they actually consider sacking Cook as captain? What are the alternatives, I certainly can’t see any.
Sorry to see Kallis gone, probably the most complete cricketer in recent times.
The Australia / SA series in Feb should be interesting and while Australia will be confident, their batting will be exposed again. The battle between both attacks should be good though, assuming Harris is fit and Johnson continues his form.[/quote]
Flower has just finished a press conference where he pledged his support for Cook to continue as captain and said that he has no intention to resign as coach either.
I doubt that Flower’s support for Cook will be the determining factor really, will it?
Haven’t they a new Chairman of Selectors or National Selector or whatever you call it and a new ECB chief executive? Doubt they’d come out and push for a captaincy change first up. Despite being seriously conservative and a right dull cunt, his captaincy record has been decent up to this admittedly shocking series.
I can’t see them changing, he’s not the greatest captain, but who’s the alternative? The only one I’d see would be Bell, who I doubt even wants it. Perhaps Broad, but a bowler as captain? The problem Cook has is that he hasn’t performed. If it was a case that he had played well and the house had fallen donw around him, then questions wouldn’t be asked. But yesterday he looked like one of the causes of the problems they have. I think he’s a nice bloke and obviously an excellent batsman, but he too nice and yes, dull.
[quote=“Fitzy, post: 879673, member: 236”]Excellent research there Manuel, Haddin has been outstanding in this series.
Not sure where England go after this, will they actually consider sacking Cook as captain? What are the alternatives, I certainly can’t see any.
[/quote]
Cook got off to a good start result wise as captain winning a series in India and the home Ashes series. There have been criticisms about him pretty much from the start that he’s too negative in his mindset and approach. The run rate has been a concern for a while, even when they were winning.
England need to find an opening partner for Cook. Carberry is certainly not the answer. I’d have stuck with Root for this series to open and he could be worth looking at again. The whole Trott business was deeply unsettling. Would like to see Bell at 3 going forward. Pietersen will continue at 4. Number 5 slot needs to be filled. Ben Stokes at 6 has been about the only plus on tour, probably batting one position too high. Remains to be seen if Prior will come again, Bairstow not answer with the gloves. Main problem with Prior was once the runs started to dry up, he’s not in the Haddin mold of getting the tough runs. More of a Gilchrist piling on the misery and the runs once in the ascendancy. The lack of runs started to affect his duties with the gloves.
Broad has had a good tour in trying circumstances. Anderson looks absolutely knackered and would benefit from a long lay off. Monty is really only a stop gap.
A big problem all tour was England looked jaded. Most of these players have been pretty much on the go non-stop since 2007. The defeats and the collapses have been crushing, but its worth noting that England had Australia in trouble in their first innings in all four tests. Over the last 5 years or so, England never lacked the killer instinct to kill off the opposition from such a position of strength. For whatever reason, there was just a general malaise about the team all series. They probably do need to be listening to a voice other than Flower at this stage. I see they have another 6 weeks in Australia playing in pyjamas. The test team should all be sent home, a long lay off and regroup for the first test against Sri Lanka at Lord’s in mid June.
[quote=“Manuel Zelaya, post: 879718, member: 377”]Cook got off to a good start result wise as captain winning a series in India and the home Ashes series. There have been criticisms about him pretty much from the start that he’s too negative in his mindset and approach. The run rate has been a concern for a while, even when they were winning.
England need to find an opening partner for Cook. Carberry is certainly not the answer. I’d have stuck with Root for this series to open and he could be worth looking at again. The whole Trott business was deeply unsettling. Would like to see Bell at 3 going forward. Pietersen will continue at 4. Number 5 slot needs to be filled. Ben Stokes at 6 has been about the only plus on tour, probably batting one position too high. Remains to be seen if Prior will come again, Bairstow not answer with the gloves. Main problem with Prior was once the runs started to dry up, he’s not in the Haddin mold of getting the tough runs. More of a Gilchrist piling on the misery and the runs once in the ascendancy. The lack of runs started to affect his duties with the gloves.
Broad has had a good tour in trying circumstances. Anderson looks absolutely knackered and would benefit from a long lay off. Monty is really only a stop gap.
A big problem all tour was England looked jaded. Most of these players have been pretty much on the go non-stop since 2007. The defeats and the collapses have been crushing, but its worth noting that England had Australia in trouble in their first innings in all four tests. Over the last 5 years or so, England never lacked the killer instinct to kill off the opposition from such a position of strength. For whatever reason, there was just a general malaise about the team all series. They probably do need to be listening to a voice other than Flower at this stage. I see they have another 6 weeks in Australia playing in pyjamas. The test team should all be sent home, a long lay off and regroup for the first test against Sri Lanka at Lord’s in mid June.[/quote]
They do look absolutely knackered, but this is a common problem among cricketers of all countries at this level at the moment. A few weeks ago Shane Watson was delighting that one of the 7 (!) ODI’s against India was washed out, so he’d have a day off. Anderson in particular looks like he’ll collapse at any minute. But I still cannot understand how weak they have been against a decidedly limited (in reality, shit) australian top order and then how they have consistently frustrated themselves against an admitedly decent enough australian lower order, they have leaked an unacceptable amount of runs from 7 downwards.
Bell has to go to 3. Would you not be better off with Pietersen at 5, let him do damage instead of trying to build?
The discussion on sky sports last night was interesting. They all agreed with Shane warne that Cooke is not natural captain, and captains “by the numbers”. Warne laid into him quite a while back, saying that he goes out with a pre-determined plan, and sticks to it no matter what, and has shown no sign of being able to adapt to a developing situation. Bob willis, having captained England as a fast bowler, reckoned broad was still too likely to blow a gasket on the field. I’d give him a dig personally. Cooke may be a good man to lead by example, but he certainly isn’t an inspiring speaker. Jason Gillespie is great to listen to and seems a real nice man.
Would anyone here try and replace flower with warne?
Ps happy Christmas fitzy.
[quote=“Manuel Zelaya, post: 879718, member: 377”]Cook got off to a good start result wise as captain winning a series in India and the home Ashes series. There have been criticisms about him pretty much from the start that he’s too negative in his mindset and approach. The run rate has been a concern for a while, even when they were winning.
England need to find an opening partner for Cook. Carberry is certainly not the answer. I’d have stuck with Root for this series to open and he could be worth looking at again. The whole Trott business was deeply unsettling. Would like to see Bell at 3 going forward. Pietersen will continue at 4. Number 5 slot needs to be filled. Ben Stokes at 6 has been about the only plus on tour, probably batting one position too high. Remains to be seen if Prior will come again, Bairstow not answer with the gloves. Main problem with Prior was once the runs started to dry up, he’s not in the Haddin mold of getting the tough runs. More of a Gilchrist piling on the misery and the runs once in the ascendancy. The lack of runs started to affect his duties with the gloves.
Broad has had a good tour in trying circumstances. Anderson looks absolutely knackered and would benefit from a long lay off. Monty is really only a stop gap.
A big problem all tour was England looked jaded. Most of these players have been pretty much on the go non-stop since 2007. The defeats and the collapses have been crushing, but its worth noting that England had Australia in trouble in their first innings in all four tests. Over the last 5 years or so, England never lacked the killer instinct to kill off the opposition from such a position of strength. For whatever reason, there was just a general malaise about the team all series. They probably do need to be listening to a voice other than Flower at this stage. I see they have another 6 weeks in Australia playing in pyjamas. The test team should all be sent home, a long lay off and regroup for the first test against Sri Lanka at Lord’s in mid June.[/quote]
Agree with all of this. I think they should draw a line under Cooke as captain, panesar and carberry now, and agree absolutely about rest. I would prepare mainly for the next ashes, and rest up the test team.
I think they have a few ODI’s coming up in the West Indies as well? Cook had no captaincy experience before this job. Now the pressure of the job is affecting his batting. I expect they will stick with him for the summer. The changeover in ECB management will mean that Flower will also stay on at least until this summer. If he goes, Giles will take over. Rumours that the Brigadier will come in as batting coach. If not Thorpe, though he does not fancy extensive touring. Not sure who would replace Cook if he went, that is what might keep him in the job. It might have been Prior before his loss of form. Would be surprised if Bell got it. Maybe Broad.
I think they have a few ODI’s coming up in the West Indies as well? Cook had no captaincy experience before this job. Now the pressure of the job is affecting his batting. I expect they will stick with him for the summer. The changeover in ECB management will mean that Flower will also stay on at least until this summer. If he goes, Giles will take over. Rumours that the Brigadier will come in as batting coach. If not Thorpe, though he does not fancy extensive touring. Not sure who would replace Cook if he went, that is what might keep him in the job. It might have been Prior before his loss of form. Would be surprised if Bell got it. Maybe Broad.
[quote=“flattythehurdler, post: 879740, member: 1170”]
Would anyone here try and replace flower with warne?[/quote]
Warne would be a very interesting choice as England coach. He has a fantastic cricket brain and I enjoy listening to him. He spends a good bit of his time in the UK and understands the English mindset. Somehow I can’t see the ECB going for it though.
Strauss, Trott and Swann (through his elbow injury initially and now retirement) are all huge losses but I’d be resisting any talk of a mass clearout. Cook, Pietersen, Anderson and possibly Prior as well can all comeback strongly after a proper lay off. The captaincy is a concern and a change of coach and fresh ideas are required.
Its worth remembering that 7 of the Australia team that started in Melbourne on Boxing Day played in the corresponding Boxing Day test three years ago, which was the most comprehensive of the three innings defeats that England inflicted in that series. Warner, Rogers, Bailey & Lyon for Hughes, Ponting, Hussey and Hilfenhaus were the four changes in personnel. Things can turn around quickly enough. India were whitewashed 4-0 in Australia two years ago and 15 months later it was India inflicting a 4-0 whitewash.
With 7 of this Australian team over 30 and Siddle 29, there’ probably going to be a few changes over the next year or two. What sort of talent is coming through in Australia? Pattinson and Cummins look useful enough as fast bowlers but both seem quite injury prone.
Thanks Flatty
[quote=“Manuel Zelaya, post: 879751, member: 377”]Warne would be a very interesting choice as England coach. He has a fantastic cricket brain and I enjoy listening to him. He spends a good bit of his time in the UK and understands the English mindset. Somehow I can’t see the ECB going for it though.
Strauss, Trott and Swann (through his elbow injury initially and now retirement) are all huge losses but I’d be resisting any talk of a mass clearout. Cook, Pietersen, Anderson and possibly Prior as well can all comeback strongly after a proper lay off. The captaincy is a concern and a change of coach and fresh ideas are required.
Its worth remembering that 7 of the Australia team that started in Melbourne on Boxing Day played in the corresponding Boxing Day test three years ago, which was the most comprehensive of the three innings defeats that England inflicted in that series. Warner, Rogers, Bailey & Lyon for Hughes, Ponting, Hussey and Hilfenhaus were the four changes in personnel. Things can turn around quickly enough. India were whitewashed 4-0 in Australia two years ago and 15 months later it was India inflicting a 4-0 whitewash.
With 7 of this Australian team over 30 and Siddle 29, there’ probably going to be a few changes over the next year or two. What sort of talent is coming through in Australia? Pattinson and Cummins look useful enough as fast bowlers but both seem quite injury prone.[/quote]
Well this is the thing with the Australian team isn’t it? Is it a false dawn? It is an old team and Watson and Harris in particular have serious question marks over their ability even in the short term to last a series. There’s plenty of decent players about, but are they test standard? I think Rogers and Bailey shpuld be done away with straight away, Rogers is too old, Bailey is useless, they need to start blooding some of the younger domestic players. James Faulkner, Jackson Bird, Alex Doolan, Aaron Finch, Moises Henriques, plenty others. Then there’s Phil Hughes (yes I know, but he continues to score serious amounts of runs in domestic cricket) and Usman Khawaja, Shaun Marsh. Maybe bring this current team to South Africa, try to get a result there and then Lehmann starts to build a team for the long term.
After a whitewash of England here, you’d fancy a good result in SA, but I can see SA murdering them. This England team are knackered and over the hill, Australia are revitalised, but too many cracks are being papered over here for my liking.
Did nobody in England realise Carberry couldn’t play when the bowler comes round the wicket? If anything for a left hander this should be easy pickings as the angle is shortened for the bowler. For an opener this is a joke.