The Celtic Phoenix - A thread to list the economic miracles of Michael Noonan & Fine Gael

[Fagan_ODowd]

@flattythehurdler

I’d argue it is more down to the luck that we are English speaking, educated (largely thanks to the church whatever way you look at it), still close enough to hard times to be driven (possibly on the wane here), and have the innate slyness to tug the forelock and dance a jig for the overlords, whilst picking their pockets as a tax haven.
Tax haven is grand, but we are screwing poorer countries, and allowing foreign multinationals huge benefits and advantages over indigenous businesses.
It is immoral, and won’t end well, though neither this nor any other govt give a shit as long as they have passed the parcel before it explodes.

Aren’t our advantages in education mainly due to the system of free universal education introduced by Donagh O’Malloy in the 1960s rather than the Church. The Church was happy to educate the masses in the basics and Catechism and then let them off at 12 to work in England or farm here and to hand pick a few of the clever ones for the priesthood and provide fee paying schools for the wealthy ones. But the system of free secondary education for all actually turned this country on its head socially and economically. The other major revolutionary point in education was Niamh Breatnachs decisionto do away with college fees for all. Can’t ntrocersial but it has undoubtedly democratised 3rd level educationin the last 25 years.

[Tim_Riggins]

How are we screwing “poorer countries”?

[gilgamboa]

@Fagan_ODowd

The other major revolutionary point in education was Niamh Breatnachs decisionto do away with college fees for all. C

How much were the fees before abolition? Someone told me the registration fee now is 3k + per annum. Said need to be budgeting 12 k a year to pay for reg and accommodation before they drink a naggin or eat a packet of pot noodles

[Tim_Riggins]

@gilgamboa

How much were the fees before abolition? Someone told me the registration fee now is 3k + per annum. Said need to be budgeting 12 k a year to pay for reg and accommodation before they drink a naggin or eat a packet of pot noodles

Yes it’s 3k per year, Labour and Quinn half ruined their own marquee policy as a government policy in the history of the state. It’s regressive.

[flattythehurdler]

By allowing mnc’s to avoid paying tax pretty much anywhere.

[TheUlteriorMotive]

Yes. Changed the country. I remember as a young lad reading GAA programmes in the 80s and compared to modern players they mostly didn’t go to third level. Education increases social mobility to a huge extent.

However it widened gap to the social welfare/disadvantaged classes. A progressive government would throw money at pre school education and it would have as revolutionary effect as free secondary school had.

[Little_Lord_Fauntleroy]

@TheUlteriorMotive

Yes. Changed the country. I remember as a young lad reading GAA programmes in the 80s and compared to modern players they mostly didn’t go to third level. Education increases social mobility to a huge extent.

However it widened gap to the social welfare/disadvantaged classes. A progressive government would throw money at pre school education and it would have as revolutionary effect as free secondary school had.

The new ACS will be a monster.

[Tim_Riggins]

@flattythehurdler

By allowing mnc’s to avoid paying tax pretty much anywhere.

Incorrect.

MNCs are paying tax.

50% of our CT take comes from 10 companies.

Apple have an enormous contingent liability sitting in their accounts for US Corporation Tax for this money, this is where it should be paid. It will be paid once the US sorts their shit out.

CT is a stupid tax but the principle should be, and these are OECD principles, that you pay where the value is created. The value is not created on iPhones in Cork. It is created by design and marketing teams in Silicon Valley. This is a land grab by Europe, which has failed to keep up with the technological achievements of US corps.

There is no “stealing” from a poor country here. The US is a wealthy country but has made a mess of their CT code such that MNC’s are seeing what one off gains they can make to their shareholders when the money is finally repatriated.

[mikehunt]

@Tim_Riggins

Incorrect.

MNCs are paying tax.

0.005% is effectively zero which is what Apple’s rate was on profits reported in Ireland.

[Tim_Riggins]

They will pay tax where the value was created, in the US.

If you want to complain about vulture funds using certain tax vehicles before they were closed up then I’d agree with you, but not on this.

[flattythehurdler]

Right. So you are genuinely saying that Apple, Google etc haven’t booked profits made elsewhere through Ireland to avoid tax?
Please.

[balbec]

The Oirish made all that value mate.

[mikehunt]

There’s no difference between Apple and Vulture funds. They’re both playing within the rules. The problem is with those that make up the rules. Govt have facilitated both Apple and vulture funds from paying taxes. One was inadvertent but if they had the option to retrospectively close that loophole would they do it? If so then why would they treat Apple differently by fighting their legal battle.

[Tim_Riggins]

I pointed it out to you above Flatty, Apple have a disclosure in their financial report to warn investors tax will have to be paid on those profits.

Of course companies avoid tax- the last thing you want is to pay CT in multiple juristrictions. The problem in this case is the US tax code, which allows for hoarding of money oversees.

Depending how you measure these things, Apple have a global effective tax rate of between 20% to 40%. It is patent bollix by people who do not understand the issues to claim that they pay no tax.

As I said before though, CT is an anachronism will globalisation. However if this double taxation is to be paid anywhere, the bulk of it should go where the IP is held.

[mikehunt]

Could you be more specific on that 20% to 40% total tax rate you say apple are paying. Is it in the 20s or 30s? You’d have thought their accountants would have been able to move those profits to the jurisdiction where they pay 0.005%.

[flattythehurdler]

That first paragraph is a beauty.

[Tim_Riggins]

I will for you, when I have a spare 20 later on.

[Tim_Riggins]

Why?

[Julio_Geordio]

Dozens of Dublin homes snapped up before building work starts

They said we’d never see the likes of it again. Estate sold out and construction not even started.
I’m going for it this time, no way this boom is passing me by. I think I’ll start with a rental apartment in Ireland, then maybe one in Bulgaria

[myboyblue]

@Julio_Geordio

http://www.thejournal.ie/cairn-homes-balgriffin-parkside-2-3252569-Feb2017/

They said we’d never see the likes of it again. Estate sold out and construction not even started.
I’m going for it this time, no way this boom is passing me by. I think I’ll start with a rental apartment in Ireland, then maybe one in Bulgaria

‘If you showed Dermot Bannon around the inside of my head, he’d say the design was minimalist’
I may have a rugby brain but even I understand what the Celtic Phoenix looks like
Sat, Feb 18, 2017, 06:00
Ross O’Carroll-Kelly

Confidence is occasionally a problem for the Rossmeister. I know that statement is going to have a lot of people choking on their lobster eggs Benedict this morning, but it’s an actual fact. I don’t mean confidence in terms of my appearance, because I know I look great? And I don’t mean confidence in terms of my personality, because everyone who meets me – I think it’s only fair to say – falls a little bit in love with me. I’m talking about confidence in terms of my brain power – the famous green matter.
The people around me haven’t exactly helped in this regord. Whenever we’re at a rugby match, my old man always feels the need to explain the score to me – “Six points behind, Ross, which means we need a converted try to win by a point” – as if all those blows to the head I took playing the game at school have left me unable to do simple subtraction, multiplication – whatever the word is for, like, adding up.
Honor was doing her homework recently and she asked me if I’d ever heard of Cú Chulainn. I went, “If you’re feeling sick, Honor, you really should talk to your mother. She’s the one who knows when you’re making up these illnesses.”
Well, this story has obviously done the rounds on social media, because whenever I drop Honor off at school now, I can see the other kids – and a few parents as well – laughing at me behind their hands.
I think you get the picture. If you showed Dermot Bannon around the inside of my head, he’d say the design was minimalist.
So when I mentioned that I was thinking of leaving Hook, Lyon and Sinker and setting up my own estate agency, the response was pretty predictable. The old man reminded me that I had “a rugby brain”, and I’m almost sure he mouthed the word “injury” immediately afterwards.

Sorcha said she didn’t want our entire financial future depending on a man who once thought a cubic foot was something that entitled you to pork in a wheelchair space.
“Do we have to keep bringing up my Leaving Cert Maths exam?” I went. “I’d like to think I’m slightly more intelligent than I was back then.”
She just said her point still stood.
I’m thinking about all of this while I’m on my way to Dortry. I’m about to show a young couple around a bungalow that’s so small their Jack Russell will have to go outside to wag its tail. I’m thinking, why do I let people put me down like that? Okay, I’m not what you would call a brainiac, but Father Fehily used to say, “No one can make you feel inferior without your actual permission.”
It’s just as I’m thinking this that my phone all of a sudden rings? It’s JP’s old man. He’s supposedly retired these days and left the running of Hook, Lyon and Sinker to me. But he’s another one who doesn’t properly trust me and he’s been showing his face around the office more and more lately.
“You idiot,” he goes – and that’s, like, his opening line?
I’m there, “What are you talking about?”

“Did you write the copy for Saint Finnian’s?”
He’s talking about Saint Finnian’s Pork, a humongous estate of houses that’s about to go up in Clonord, County – believe it or not – Meath. We’re going to be, like, the official agents for it and, yes, I wrote the copy.
He’s like, “You put the wrong date on it, genius.”
I’m there, “No, I didn’t. I put, ‘Coming February 2018!’”
“Then explain to me why there’s 200 people queuing up outside.”
“Fock!”
“They’ve been sleeping out for two nights. Friend of mine drove past this morning. It’s, like, rows and rows of tents. He said it was like Calais. ”
“What’s Calais? I’m presuming a music festival?”
“Doesn’t matter. It won’t ever concern you. But you’ve got to go out there and tell them the truth.”
“But I’m supposed to be reshowing a gaff in Dortry.”
“JP can do that. You go tell those nice people they just wasted two days of their lives they’re never getting back.”
“They’re not going to be happy rabbits.”
“Your mess – you clean it up. Hey, you’re a great estate agent. It’s just you got a rugby brain.”
“Did you just mouth a word after that?”
“No.”
“It’s just there seemed to be a pause at the end – like you said another word in your mind.”
“You’re being paranoid. Now get out to Clonard. ”
This mate of his wasn’t lying. There’s, like, hundreds of tents pitched in the mud of what is still an empty field with loads of just holes in the ground. I don’t know how long these people think it takes to build a gaff but they should have realised it was the wrong date when they arrived and saw that not a single brick had been laid.
The people are all gathered in little clusters. They’re sitting on collapsible chairs – like the one that Sorcha’s granny bought for the pope’s last visit and gets treated like a family heirloom. They’ve got fires burning in barrels and they’re drinking coffee from flasks and they’re singing songs. They’ve obviously all bonded.
I stand in front of them and I ask for a bit of hush. “My name is Ross O’Carroll-Kelly,” I go – just in case there’s any non-rugby fans in among them, “and I’m from Hook, Lyon and Sinker. I’m afraid there’s been a mistake. Whoever wrote the copy for the ad accidentally put, ‘Coming February 2017!’ instead of, ‘Coming February 2018!’”

“No, they didn’t,” some dude goes, handing me a piece of paper printed off the Hook, Lyon and Sinker website. “It says 2018.”
And I go, “Well, if you know it’s February 2018, why are you all here now?”
And as thick as I am, I don’t need anyone to answer me. My old man has been talking about the Celtic Phoenix for a few years now. But, right now, I know I’m actually seeing it for the first time.
And I know something else, too. I was put on this Earth to kick points – and to sell houses. And from this moment on, I’m going to be doing it purely for myself.