The NBA comparison is an obvious and accurate one.
The best players in countries with small markets in European and global terms don’t stay in those countries. They move to the league with the best players, which is a powerhouse in an economically and culturally dominant country, where they can earn many multiples of what they would earn if they stayed in their home countries.
That’s exactly the same scenario that Irish footballers are faced with, and indeed footballers from any country which doesn’t have a big five European league.
Brazil attracts an average attendance of just 14k for Serie A games. That’s a country of 200 million people. That’s mainly down to the fact that all its best players play in Europe now.
Ireland retains its players because the IRFU put a system in place to alllow that.
Club rugby pre 1995 is an utter irrelevance to the point.
There is a reason why Unions with similar resources like Wales and Scotland have failed to do this to the same degree and have lost significant playing stocks over the years to England and France.
Claiming there is no “pull factor” is simply bullshit.
The FAI certainly face significant challenges, which I have acknowledged time and time again here, but they have failed every time to come up with a system to counteract that. And the Irish soccer public have failed to turn up as well to support that.
The simple fact is that we have lads on here who routinely claim that Irish rugby is simply a bandwagon. The only thing that points to that is the decline in the AIL, which has been simply replaced with a better system for Irish rugby, with players staying in Ireland.
Time and time again it is shown that Irish football fans are simply bandwagoners. I have never denied the existence of the Irish rugby bandwagon, but seeing the lads on here getting into a tizzy over it when they all support British soccer clubs is gas. Irish soccer only gets big crowds when there is some jolly event on. Irish rugby has always got crowds and it’s supporters will turn out here for under 20s rugby, schools rugby or pro rugby in better numbers than soccer can.
There is a reason after all, why the FAI were tenants for decades.
Anyway, why would a so called IFA fan like yourself care so much? Is this like you asking me was I one some ROI football chat site as well?
The European league is actually very strong as well, not that Sidney would know that.
The reason why Ireland cannot have a league as strong as Scotland is now, or even somewhere like Norway, is because of incompetence and fans not giving a shit. They would rather support some cringe OTT team in the West of Scotland or Liverpool than support a soccer team in their local community. And you’ll always note how they stress the Irish roots of these places as well.
Ireland can put in place a system to keep its players because other countries generally cannot offer a package attractive enough to lure the best Irish players there compared to what they’d get in Ireland.
It can also threaten to cold shoulder any players who do leave in terms of national team selection, such as Ian Madigan.
You simply can’t do that in association football.
The FAI cannot say “only players that play in the League of Ireland will be selected for the national team”.
Because they’d be laughed out of it were they to do so.
Wales and Scotland didn’t have the same geographical luck as Ireland, in that were no ready made teams with both a history and defined geographical centres to enter into the Heineken Cup/Pro 12. The Cork and Limerick clubs have always provided Munster with players. Similarly with the Dublin clubs and Leinster, same with the other provinces.
There was no historical feed into Glasgow and Edinburgh in Scotland. They were completely new teams in centres with traditionally poor followings for the game. In Wales, there were no ready made provincial teams either, and the teams there now are effectively uneasy amalgamations of clubs (Ospreys, Dragons) or effectively continuations of clubs (Cardiff, Llanelli).
Ireland was exceedingly lucky that it had that ready made provincial teams with a history that people could easily form an identification with. Scotland and Wales didn’t have that.
The IRFU were dealt a lucky hand when they game went professional. They’ve played that hand very well, but it doesn’t take away from the fact it was a lucky hand.
There is very little pull factor. Unless you’re an indispensable player for the national team, such as Sexton, you can kiss goodbye to your chances of being picked for Ireland. Outside of maybe Leicester, Toulouse or Toulon, there are few glamour clubs in England or France. You probably won’t be playing in front of passionate fans. You might be earning a bit more than you would in Ireland, but not substantially more, and in career terms you probably won’t be advancing, certainly if you have aspirations of playing for Ireland.
But if for hypothetical argument’s sake, if the Top Quatorze suddenly surged in popularity and started offering wages six or seven times that of what the IRFU could offer, all the Irish players would be off like a shot, the IRFU would be forced to relax its policy on players playing outside Ireland being picked for the national team, the provinces would collapse in terms of their competitiveness in Europe, the provinces’ attendances would collapse, and the Pro12 would effectively become a League of Ireland type competition.
But the Top Quatorze, or indeed the English Premiership or Super Rugby, cannot offer anything remotely like that. Such a league currently exists nowhere in the world. Which is why national federations can effectively force their best players to stay at home through threatening them with de-selection from their national team.
The FAI, through none of its own fault, faces challenges that absolutely dwarf that of anything the IRFU faces. There is simply no comparison.
Every sport has a bandwagon. Irish rugby has always had a reasonable core support, but it’s dwarfed by the core support for association football and GAA in this country.
“Core support” for club rugby completely evaporated when the game went professional.
The valid comparisons are
Club rugby - club GAA - League of Ireland
Pro12/Heineken Cup - Inter-county GAA - Premier League
International rugby - international association football
Rugby comes off worst in all three comparisons in terms of core interest.
I was watching Irish Cup basketball as far back as 1987, when Premier Killester had future NBA champion Mario Elie and the great Kelvin Troy playing for them, mate. The battles between them and Burgeland Neptune and Dawn Milk Blue Demons were some of my forming sporting memories.
I also watched European Cup basketball on Eurosport back in the early 90s, when the great Split team of Toni Kukoc were doing battle with Barcelona, Aris Salonika, Maccabi Tel Aviv and the likes.
You do realise that the popularity of sports and how it evolves has always depended on particular historical, socio-economic and cultural circumstances, yes?
You do realise that English teams and Celtic have always had massive core support in Ireland and the best Irish players have always played in Britain, yes?
You do realise that Ireland has always had a far greater cultural link with Britain than Norway has, yes? You know, what with being part of the same nation state up to 1922, and all. I mean, I was certain you of all posters would realise that.
How many Norwegian players played in England before about 1990?
I have never said that association football should be able to keep all Irish players at home, I have however criticised the state of the LoI and its standard.
It doesn’t wash that Scotland can have a league like theirs and Ireland cannot. It just doesn’t.
Re structure, you seem to want to have your cake and eat it. Criticise Irish rugby for moving away from clubs being resourced for pro players but then saying the IRFU are simply lucky that they have a system. The IRFU had to make a conscious effort to establish 4 professional teams in Ireland and to reduce the role of the clubs. The FAI have continuously sat on their hands.
You’ve now gone from saying there’s “no” pull factor to “very little”. The Top 14 have a salary cap of 10 million euros and England has 7 million pounds. For a squad of 40 that’s a not too bad a living of 250k on average. The IRFU must compete with that and cut their cloth accordingly.
Where is your three comparisons from?
International- rugby wins. It had the stadium that the FAI rented and now still use, albeit on a more equal footing for a few decades.
The IRFU rarely gets below 40k for home attendances. The only time they did was when they horribly misjudged pricing when it opened. Since then you have high attendances at all Ireland games.
The IRFU sold their 10 year tickets with ease, the FAI failed to do so.
The IRFU, despite having a professional structure to support, had their stadium debt paid within 5 years. The FAI failed to make their payments and resorted to a debt write down.
The IRFU turns over 47% more annually, despite being in a smaller world sport and not having the same access to UEFA millions that the FAI do.
In terms of core interest, in the last 5 years rugby has had more games in the top 20 of most viewers programmes than association football.
Second tier, it’s rugby. Supporting Suarez and Leigh Griffiths might make you feel all fuzzy inside, but does nothing for Irish soccer.
And there was a mass exodus of internationals to the UK the minute game turned pro. The IRFU worked hard to put a proper framework in place to entice them home though.
And continue to keep pretty much all the top players at home despite the massive sums they could earn overseas. For example the rumoured 500k offered to madigan to probably play 2nd tier in England would put him in top 10 (maybe 5) earners over here
[[quote=“Sidney, post:1066, topic:923”]
There was no historical feed into Glasgow and Edinburgh in Scotland. They were completely new teams in centres with traditionally poor followings for the game. In Wales, there were no ready made provincial teams either, and the teams there now are effectively uneasy amalgamations of clubs (Ospreys, Dragons) or effectively continuations of clubs (Cardiff, Llanelli).
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That’s a factor. But so is their unwillingness to adopt a union led model with central contracting of the top players. NZ do it, Ireland do it, England have moved to it and now the belief is the French will do it on a large scale. That helps keep top players at home which breeds success which breeds a fan base etc…
Well, earlier you were boasting about how the best Irish rugby players stayed at home. I’ve already explained why that happens in rugby and why it cannot in association football.
If you weren’t making a point about the best Irish association football players not staying at home and linking it to FAI “incompetence”, I’ve no idea why you’d mention that the best Irish rugby players stay at home and praise the IRFU for such.
There can be no comparison here. It’s apples and oranges.
Socio-economic and cultural factors.
Scotland was and is effectively a one-sport country, bar a bit of rugby in the lowland border regions and upper classes.
Ireland wasn’t and isn’t. There was no GAA in Scotland or anything like it.
European football history was driven by industrial cities. Glasgow, Liverpool, Manchester, Milan, Barcelona etc.
The Celtic-Rangers rivalry drove Scottish football, and that happened because Celtic, right from its formation, became a massive rallying cultural institution for the Irish community in Scotland, with Rangers opposing it.
Ireland was historically a largely rural society, and therefore lacked the population bases needed to sustain such professional teams. Sporting identity became entwined with parish, county and later national identity. There was also a class identity factor.
I’m not criticising the IRFU. They couldn’t have run a professional structure based in the club system. Wales tried it and it was a disaster.
But they were extremely lucky they had a ready made system to implement. It couldn’t have been any more ready made for them. That’s not a criticism of anybody, that’s simply a fact.
It’s also not a criticism of the IRFU that support for the club game collapsed. It’s simply a statement that support for the club game collapsed when there was an alternative and better standard of rugby there, and proof that support for the club game wasn’t very strong to begin with. Remember the heyday of the All-Ireland League was very much a shortlived thing. It was effectively just five years, 1990 to 1995.
What, realistically, can the FAI do to improve the League of Ireland? They’ve moved the timing of the league to take advantage of better weather. Marketing costs money. Stadium improvements cost money, and there have been real stadium improvements over the last 10-15 years.There isn’t the money there to pay better wages. Without better wages you can’t attract better players. Pretty much all the best players produced here will go to the UK. People can criticise the FAI all they want but realistically, they can do very little that will make a real difference. Would you criticise the IFA for how they run their league? Because they have all the same problems, and a worse league.
But there is very little pull factor. There might be a pull factor if you don’t have a realistic shot of playing for Ireland, say if you’re Damien Browne or Mick O’Driscoll or James Downey, but if you’re in any sort of contention to play for Ireland, the pull factor is virtually nil because if you move, you won’t be in contention. Simple as that.
Again it goes back to the IRFU being able to decide who is in contention for the national team because the other leagues can’t offer a significantly better package.
If the wages in England or France significantly increased, those players would be gone.
You compare by comparing similar levels. The GAA has no international outlet so you can’t compare it on that score.
The other comparisons are obvious ones.
International association football wins over international rugby. Both on viewing figures and general excitement around the country when each team is involved in a major finals game.
Rugby is a mainly middle and upper class game with huge ties to the business community. The more “upmarket” something is, the easier it will find to attract money.
Association football is mainly a working class sport. You mention professional structures. The FAI also has the burden of having to support a quasi-professional structure while also having to sustain a far-bigger grass roots than rugby does. The schools take up a lot of slack for rugby in terms of youth development.
Rugby also has guaranteed showpiece games each spring and November, - the FAI can’t offer that as the international association football calendar is structured differently - even years tend to be fallow ones in terms of high profile games, and also there’s no guarantee that Eire will be in contention to qualify for major finals in the odd years. 2017 will be a good year for the FAI in terms of attendances at Lansdowne Road with several high profile games in the offing, much as 2015 was, whereas 2016 was a fallow one with only friendlies and one World Cup qualifier against a fifth seed.
Rugby has the benefit of being able to keep its top players at home, thus guaranteeing revenue in the way the FAI can’t.
Again, rugby has guaranteed showpiece games. The FAI doesn’t. When it does, it wins.
It’s a comparison of core support. There is a bigger core support for association football. Liverpool, Manchester United and Celtic all have a bigger core support in Dublin than Leinster do.
Kids start playing a sport because they have heroes. Those heroes can be from anywhere. If a kid starts playing because Luis Suarez is his hero and he goes on to be the next Robbie Keane, that’s a clear benefit to Irish association football.
It’s a good thing in terms of spreading competition.
Rugby is not played to a high standard in many countries so cannot afford to lose any competitiveness in terms of the top level of the club/provincial game and cannot afford to let money concentrate in the leagues of one or two countries, as it would fundamentally change the balance of power within the game for the worse.
Many association football supporters such as myself and @mickee321 lament the way money has concentrated in a small number of European leagues to such an extent, thus rendering any club outside the big five leagues as pretty much irrelevant in terms of contending for European trophies and denying us the sort of variety and unpredictability that European club competitions previously had. It has also damaged international football.
From what I remember, in the early days of professionalism, the English clubs started paying ridiculous salaries they couldn’t afford and clubs started going bust. It was a bubble.
But it did show that players would move if the money was right.
The Celtic League/Pro 12 also didn’t start until 2001 and didn’t become a proper league until the 2003/04 season, meaning the club game here sort of held on for a while. Munster were scratching around for practice matches in 2000 and 2001 when they were involved in the latter stages of the Heineken Cup, from what I remember.
Madigan proves the point about what types of players will be willing to move. Were he still with Leinster, he probably wouldn’t be a first choice starter. He’d probably be third choice out-half at best for Ireland, he could conceivably have been fifth choice next year with both Hanrahan and Bleyendaal possibly ahead of him.
Given that his prospects with both Leinster and Ireland would have been limited, a higher salary was too good an offer to turn down.
But you don’t see many regular Irish internationals moving because they want to stay involved with Ireland.
