Why democracy doesn't work

1

Democracy, quite simply does not work. Why? Because the fate of this entire Country now lies in the lap of a couple of hundred well off D4 do-gooders and a couple of hundred tree-huggers, who probably never worked a day in their lives.

The Green Party yesterday pulled the old trick of saying “Its not up to us, as individual Ministers to make decisions, it is up to the membership of the Green Party” The Greens, you see, want it every way.

The Greens are holding a special conference to vote on the NAMA bill next week. The Government cannot get the NAMA bill through without the support of the Greens. In fact, it is obvious that if the NAMA bill does not go through then there will be an election before Christmas. Therefore, the Green vote is crucial to the sustainability of the Government and the future of the Country. Greens vote yes to NAMA - The Government ploughs ahead with NAMA, mortgages the entire future of the Country, and survives for another 12-18 months. Greens vote no to NAMA - Government falls, a general election occurs and we have a new Government in place in January, which will send the future of this Country off on a completely different tangent.

This Green vote will affect the entire population of the Country massively. It will affect our children’s children. All of our futures lie in the votes and minds of a few hundred Green Party members. How has it come to this. Democracy doesn’t work.

2

Its a done deal after Lenihan dropped property tax in favour of more Carbon taxes on Radio One Sunday. The whole flying of the next budget in advance was to convice green grassroots and nothing else. The fact its a complete about face from FF to hang onto power shouldn’t really surprise anyone though.

The Greens will never get near power again so they will take the 30 pieces of silver on offer from their betters and say thanks.

3

[quote=“tipptops*”]Democracy, quite simply does not work. Why? Because the fate of this entire Country now lies in the lap of a couple of hundred well off D4 do-gooders and a couple of hundred tree-huggers, who probably never worked a day in their lives.

The Green Party yesterday pulled the old trick of saying “Its not up to us, as individual Ministers to make decisions, it is up to the membership of the Green Party” The Greens, you see, want it every way.

The Greens are holding a special conference to vote on the NAMA bill next week. The Government cannot get the NAMA bill through without the support of the Greens. In fact, it is obvious that if the NAMA bill does not go through then there will be an election before Christmas. Therefore, the Green vote is crucial to the sustainability of the Government and the future of the Country. Greens vote yes to NAMA - The Government ploughs ahead with NAMA, mortgages the entire future of the Country, and survives for another 12-18 months. Greens vote no to NAMA - Government falls, a general election occurs and we have a new Government in place in January, which will send the future of this Country off on a completely different tangent.

This Green vote will affect the entire population of the Country massively. It will affect our children’s children. All of our futures lie in the votes and minds of a few hundred Green Party members. How has it come to this. Democracy doesn’t work.[/quote]

Eh that conveniently ignores the elected representatives of FG, Labour, Sinn Fin and independents who are also opposing NAMA. The power isn’t held exclusively by the Greens, far from it. If FG were on board with NAMA (or Labour) this wouldn’t be an issue.

This is a good example of democracy in action - whatever you think about how people vote and how they are voting. This at least proves that the people are represented.

4

[quote=“Rocko”]Eh that conveniently ignores the elected representatives of FG, Labour, Sinn Fin and independents who are also opposing NAMA. The power isn’t held exclusively by the Greens, far from it. If FG were on board with NAMA (or Labour) this wouldn’t be an issue.

This is a good example of democracy in action - whatever you think about how people vote and how they are voting. This at least proves that the people are represented.[/quote]

i think the point Tipptops was making is that the crusties(and ye throw in a handful of village idiot independents also), having contributed zero to this state apart from upgrading the standard insulation we must use in our homes and putting more cyclists on our streets, now have the future of NAMA and therefor the future and direction of the states finances in the palm of their hands.

regardless of fg, labour, sf, its the Greens and Jackie healy Rae who will decide the direction our future goes.

5

I see Mattie the scrapper McGrath is getting itchy feet over NAMA? I wonder will he be the only FF back bencher to say so publically?

6

[quote=“Rocko”]Eh that conveniently ignores the elected representatives of FG, Labour, Sinn Fin and independents who are also opposing NAMA. The power isn’t held exclusively by the Greens, far from it. If FG were on board with NAMA (or Labour) this wouldn’t be an issue.

This is a good example of democracy in action - whatever you think about how people vote and how they are voting. This at least proves that the people are represented.[/quote]

he’s not conveniently ignoring them. he’s correctly disregarding them as their input is meaningless under the whip system.

he is correct in stating that the greens now hold the balance of power regarding NAMA. PR-STV has left us beholden to a small, special interest group with 6 TDs and approx 3% of first rpeference votes if the most recent polls are accurate.

whether or not the green party make the decision for or against NAMA may be decided democratically.
a 2/3 rds majority is required to force the green TDs to vote now, which isn’t quite democracy in action.

there’s also the white smoke regarding 5 separate local organisations having to table correctly worded motions, and the fact that gormley has suggested the vote takes place once the final draft is before the dail, sometime in october, and not in sept prior to the dail resuming as was initially intended. lots of stalling and horse trading going on. HBV sums it up nicely with the carbon tax reference above.

Save the Planet, Screw the Country.

7

“Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to tim”

HBV again you are ignoring the fact that FG, Lab etc have a vote on this.
So the greens have a swing vote. This isn’t a shock to anyone.

8

[quote=“cluaindiuic”]“Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to tim”

HBV again you are ignoring the fact that FG, Lab etc have a vote on this.
So the greens have a swing vote. This isn’t a shock to anyone.[/quote]

im not ignoring it, we know how they will vote, they are opposing it, therfor it comes down to the Greens.
:popcorn:

9

[quote=“cluaindiuic”]“Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to tim”

HBV again you are ignoring the fact that FG, Lab etc have a vote on this.
So the greens have a swing vote. This isn’t a shock to anyone.[/quote]

CD,

Its a given that the Opposition are going to oppose this bill. Notwithsatnding the fact that its probably the most important piece of legislation to come before the Houses since the foundation of the state, they wouldn’t be an Opposition if they didn’t oppose and propose an alternative.

Take the Lisbon Treaty…Sarkozy wasn’t going to let a couple of million paddies stop this project. Whether Ireland votes Yes or No to Lisbon next time is immaterial…Europe will be ploughing on regardless. However the NAMA project will be unable to plough on without the Green vote. They signed up for Government (like Ireland signed up for Europe) and accepted the trappings of Government (like Ireland took advantage of Europe) but now that its squeaky bum time they are falling back on the old “Its up to the grassroots to decide” not the Parliamentary Party. (Akin to Ireland voting No to Lisbon last time out)

As an aside, you have to hand it to Bertie Ahern. He built a tank of a Government. At the time the Government was formed, many questioned why Bertie brought in The PD’s, Greens and various independants. They had a majority that far exceeded what they needed to govern. Time has shown that this overwhelming majority going to be badly needed. They might even need the Ceann Comhairle’s casting vote to get NAMA through.

10

[quote=“tipptops*”]CD,

They might even need the Ceann Comhairle’s casting vote to get NAMA through.[/quote]

They better hope there isn’t a race meeting in Ballinrobe that day so.

11

[quote=“cluaindiuic”]“Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to tim”

HBV again you are ignoring the fact that FG, Lab etc have a vote on this.
So the greens have a swing vote. This isn’t a shock to anyone.[/quote]

Correct CLD, it was the great Churchill that uttered the quote you refer to above.

Any democratic system will inevitable throw up these scenarios in close votes. In theory, without the whip system, any close vote would be decided by the last few voters to cast.

Yes our PR system ensures that the likes of one-horse independents get elected and wield power beyond their mandate, but then its up to the mainstream parties to convince the voters not to vote for those independents.

Democracy can be very annoying. It irks me that FF are so adept at playing the system to maximise their return. But its more representative than the UK system where a party with barely 1/3 of the electorate behind them can gain a huge majority and ram unrepresentative legislation through.

12

[quote=“Shadow”]Correct CLD, it was the great Churchill that uttered the quote you refer to above.

Any democratic system will inevitable throw up these scenarios in close votes. In theory, without the whip system, any close vote would be decided by the last few voters to cast.

Yes our PR system ensures that the likes of one-horse independents get elected and wield power beyond their mandate, but then its up to the mainstream parties to convince the voters not to vote for those independents.

Democracy can be very annoying. It irks me that FF are so adept at playing the system to maximise their return. But its more representative than the UK system where a party with barely 1/3 of the electorate behind them can gain a huge majority and ram unrepresentative legislation through.[/quote]

as opposed to a country where a party with barely 25% of the electoratee behind them can ram NAMA through?

13

[quote=“tipptops*”]CD,

Its a given that the Opposition are going to oppose this bill. Notwithsatnding the fact that its probably the most important piece of legislation to come before the Houses since the foundation of the state, they wouldn’t be an Opposition if they didn’t oppose and propose an alternative.

Take the Lisbon Treaty…Sarkozy wasn’t going to let a couple of million paddies stop this project. Whether Ireland votes Yes or No to Lisbon next time is immaterial…Europe will be ploughing on regardless. However the NAMA project will be unable to plough on without the Green vote. They signed up for Government (like Ireland signed up for Europe) and accepted the trappings of Government (like Ireland took advantage of Europe) but now that its squeaky bum time they are falling back on the old “Its up to the grassroots to decide” not the Parliamentary Party. (Akin to Ireland voting No to Lisbon last time out)

As an aside, you have to hand it to Bertie Ahern. He built a tank of a Government. At the time the Government was formed, many questioned why Bertie brought in The PD’s, Greens and various independants. They had a majority that far exceeded what they needed to govern. Time has shown that this overwhelming majority going to be badly needed. They might even need the Ceann Comhairle’s casting vote to get NAMA through.[/quote]

[quote=“tipptops*”]CD,

Interesting you chose the Lisbon Treaty as an example right after claiming that the opposition will oppose every bill regardless of its merits.

[quote=“treaty_exile”]he’s not conveniently ignoring them. he’s correctly disregarding them as their input is meaningless under the whip system.

he is correct in stating that the greens now hold the balance of power regarding NAMA. PR-STV has left us beholden to a small, special interest group with 6 TDs and approx 3% of first rpeference votes if the most recent polls are accurate.

whether or not the green party make the decision for or against NAMA may be decided democratically.
a 2/3 rds majority is required to force the green TDs to vote now, which isn’t quite democracy in action.

there’s also the white smoke regarding 5 separate local organisations having to table correctly worded motions, and the fact that gormley has suggested the vote takes place once the final draft is before the dail, sometime in october, and not in sept prior to the dail resuming as was initially intended. lots of stalling and horse trading going on. HBV sums it up nicely with the carbon tax reference above.

Save the Planet, Screw the Country.[/quote]

He is conveniently ignoring them.

Everyone has voting rights that reflects their representation in the Dil. I’ve a particular loathing for the current leadership of the Green Party but you condemn the whip system of party politics in the first place before condemning the Green Party for having a vote to ignore the whip system.

Whatever you might hold the Greens accountable for, and there’s no shortage of issues, it’s a bit much to blame them for the fact that their membership is considering NAMA, while at the same time bemoaning the fact that everyone else has surrendered power to the Greens by voting along party lines.

The Greens cannot be held responsibile for the fact that their votes may be decisive. That’s just a feature of being last to declare. In any tight vote the person who declares their hand last will appear to be decisive but they’re no more important than any of the other votes obviously.

14

I’m no fan of FF (to put it mildly) but they didn’t get 25% at the last general election. We have the system we have. Governments get a 5 year term. The electorate blindly elected FF last time out even when everyone with an ounce of sense could see the way things were going. No point whining now.

15

they’re not voting to ignore the whip system, they’re voting on how to implement it.

it would seem the Green TD’s are in favour of NAMA.
if 2/3 rds of the green party members decide otherwise, they’ll vote against it (or at least that’s what they’re saying now)

FG, Lab, SF et al are voting along whip lines but in this case they seem to be in agreement with every economist in the country bar Alan Ahearne, so I don’t have as much of an issue with it.

in an ideal world, there is no whip system and TDs vote along ethical/moral lines on individual proposals.

I agree the fact that the other parties have made their position clear and their votes are a fait accompli is not the greens’ fault.
Nevertheless, the end result, regardless of how you spin it, is that the final decision on NAMA rests with a few hundred green party members, who are in no way representative of the country as a whole.

16

[quote=“treaty_exile”]they’re not voting to ignore the whip system, they’re voting on how to implement it.

it would seem the Green TD’s are in favour of NAMA.
if 2/3 rds of the green party members decide otherwise, they’ll vote against it (or at least that’s what they’re saying now)

FG, Lab, SF et al are voting along whip lines but in this case they seem to be in agreement with every economist in the country bar Alan Ahearne, so I don’t have as much of an issue with it.

in an ideal world, there is no whip system and TDs vote along ethical/moral lines on individual proposals.

I agree the fact that the other parties have made their position clear and their votes are a fait accompli is not the greens’ fault.
Nevertheless, the end result, regardless of how you spin it, is that the final decision on NAMA rests with a few hundred green party members, who are in no way representative of the country as a whole.[/quote]

OK. The original premise is that Democracy doesn’t work. How would the alternatives be better?

Dictatorship and oligarchy, b their very nature, mean that decisions rest in the hands of a very few, very powerful people. Democracy is the only system whereby the people have any input. Which type of democracy is best is another question entirely, but any of the flavours which eliminate the say of minorities are obviously flawed in that very attribute.

I think our PR is one of the better systems, but I’d be in favour of the introduction of at least a partial List system to reduce the impact of local/parish politics and a lower bar (say 5% of the vote nationally) to eliminate independents and singular parties.

17

[quote=“Shadow”]OK. The original premise is that Democracy doesn’t work. How would the alternatives be better?

Dictatorship and oligarchy, b their very nature, mean that decisions rest in the hands of a very few, very powerful people. Democracy is the only system whereby the people have any input. Which type of democracy is best is another question entirely, but any of the flavours which eliminate the say of minorities are obviously flawed in that very attribute.

I think our PR is one of the better systems, but I’d be in favour of the introduction of at least a partial List system to reduce the impact of local/parish politics and a lower bar (say 5% of the vote nationally) to eliminate independents and singular parties.[/quote]

could we not just remove the party whip, at least on issues of national importance? (a definition can be set aside for now)

no more “sure i was only following orders” at your local clinic, you can ask your elected representative why he thinks cervical cancer vaccines are a bad idea, or minesterial pensions are paid out before retirement. I could go on with interesting questions to ask, the point is the whip system removes a large chunk of responsibility from our TDs.

It’s only when faced with the imminent threat of losing their seat that the “constituents” are thought of, witness the spineless wonders of sligo-leitrim falling over one another to announce they’d resigned the FF whip.

I’m not dismissing your suggestion, but if there is to be a re-shaping of the irish system, I’d imagine it is too radical for the local cumann to stomach.

18

I mightn’d have agreed with you on the Cricket but your absolutely spot on with that analysis. You get the government you deserve.

The scary thing is FF got closer to 41% not 25%. They got 25% in the locals ok, when all the dity linen had been washed. This means even people knowing what they knew we still had 1 in 4 Turkeys voting for Xmas !

Either that or 25% of the population are property developers/bankers?

19

[quote=“treaty_exile”]could we not just remove the party whip, at least on issues of national importance? (a definition can be set aside for now)

no more “sure i was only following orders” at your local clinic, you can ask your elected representative why he thinks cervical cancer vaccines are a bad idea, or minesterial pensions are paid out before retirement. I could go on with interesting questions to ask, the point is the whip system removes a large chunk of responsibility from our TDs.[/quote]

But we do vote for parties as well as individuals. There’d be no point voting for a party whose policies you supported if there was no whip because the party might find it difficult to enforce them.

Any TD who wants to can vote against the whip (it’s not a real one :mad:). they should then leave the party and the electorate could judge them later.

[quote=“Special Olympiakos”]They got 25% in the locals ok, when all the dity linen had been washed. This means even people knowing what they knew we still had 1 in 4 Turkeys voting for Xmas !

Either that or 25% of the population are property developers/bankers?[/quote]

:smiley:

20

I won’t hold my breath on that one…

I suppose what I’m really asking (perhaps naively) is for some sort of political responsibility. Don’t agree with some trifling matter, fine, stay in the bar for that vote.
Disagree over a fundamental policy vote and at least have the courage of your convictions and resign / stand in the by-election.

Your point about the whip system being a necessary evil is well made.

But if the voting system (and the importance of minority groups in it) is merely a symptom of the illness, what’s the underlying cause?

The current system was designed to prevent the Protestant minority being marginalised by a Government dominated by Irish Nationalists. That’s no longer a requirement when allocating Dil seats.

Reverting to the first-past-the-post system would spell the end of SF, GP and most independents. Labour would become something of a well-intentioned joke, similar to the Lib Dems. FF / FG would happily spin the Cabinet merry-go-round, leaving us with more or less the same Governments we’ve had for the past 80 years, give or take the odd coalition.

Which brings us back to the coalition partners. Labour under the Rainbow vs PDs and McCreevy under the Bert. Noel Browne and Clann na Poblachta / Talmhan vs the GP under Clowen.
Usually the junior party are the ones with what would be described at the time as radical policies. In total, their influence has been more beneficial than not.

Which brings us right back to the Green Party. If NAMA falls, it will be because of their grassroots choosing the radical option for the Government.
Nothing to do with the thousands of Fianna Fail cumann nationwide, who you’d imagine would have more say in running the country than the Greens. Even less to do with the rest of us, who will have to wait up to 3 years to have any say at all in the matter.
That’s a funny way of being represented proportionately, isn’t it?