This is a radical development in thought and you heard it here exclusively.
An astonishing insight, I hope Kev has the book ready to publish on this revelation for fear some lurker like Enda McNulty jumps all over it.
If your aim is to win an All Ireland then aim at that. Ulster, since the back door, is really way down the pecking order.
If teams were tiring themselves out in ulster then they were just plain stupid.
What it really is of course is they are not good enough in most cases. And when they were good enough they were successful. Itâs that simple.
Tyrone definitely aimed at September on a few occasions.
Kerry players play in the county league all year where they are just as likely to get injuries, they never whinge about that. Obviously itâs not Ulster championship but itâs still football and highly competitive
[QUOTE=âcaoimhaoin, post: 1060305, member: 273â]If your aim is to win an All Ireland then aim at that. Ulster, since the back door, is really way down the pecking order.
If teams were tiring themselves out in ulster then they were just plain stupid.
What it really is of course is they are not good enough in most cases. And when they were good enough they were successful. Itâs that simple.
Tyrone definitely aimed at September on a few occasions.
Kerry players play in the county league all year where they are just as likely to get injuries, they never whinge about that. Obviously itâs not Ulster championship but itâs still football and highly competitive[/QUOTE]
The fairly obvious point and one which has already been made is that because the Munster championship is shit, Kerry and Cork know they can can coast through to the last 12, year on year, with an odd exception. Ulster counties donât have that luxury and have to play a high level of competitive football just to get to the last 12/last 8, either through the Ulster championship or through the back door. Year on year that takes a physical and mental toll and mitigates against sustained success.
The back door can prove a minefield. In 2001 and 2003 when Armagh went through the back door they met Galway and Dublin in early July, so they had to peak for those matches anyway. In 2007 they went out in to Derry in Round 1. Kerry have never been put in that situation bar arguably 2012 when they met Tyrone. Thatâs the difference.
Tyrone were certainly tiring themselves out in Ulster the years they won the All-Irelands. Drew against Down and Derry in 2003. Drew with Cavan and Armagh in 2005. Drew with Down and lost a replay after extra time in 2008.
Your argument is bizarre and contradictory. On the one hand youâre saying that a competitive provincial championship is a huge advantage, but on the other hand youâre saying that counties are stupid to take it seriously. You canât have both.
[QUOTE=âSidney, post: 1060324, member: 183â]The fairly obvious point and one which has already been made is that because the Munster championship is shit, Kerry and Cork know they can can coast through to the last 12, year on year, with an odd exception. Ulster counties donât have that luxury and have to play a high level of competitive football just to get to the last 12/last 8, either through the Ulster championship or through the back door. Year on year that takes a physical and mental toll and mitigates against sustained success.
The back door can prove a minefield. In 2001 and 2003 when Armagh went through the back door they met Galway and Dublin in early July, so they had to peak for those matches anyway. In 2007 they went out in to Derry in Round 1. Kerry have never been put in that situation bar arguably 2012 when they met Tyrone. Thatâs the difference.
Tyrone were certainly tiring themselves out in Ulster the years they won the All-Irelands. Drew against Down and Derry in 2003. Drew with Cavan and Armagh in 2005. Drew with Down and lost a replay after extra time in 2008.
Your argument is bizarre and contradictory. On the one hand youâre saying that a competitive provincial championship is a huge advantage, but on the other hand youâre saying that counties are stupid to take it seriously. You canât have both.[/QUOTE]
Just because they have an advantage, playing more competitive games IMO, does not mean they are or were good enough to actually win.
My main point is they lose because they are not good enough anyway, it has fuck all to do with playing more games.
Your Tyrone example bizarrely (you should give yourself a clamping for that) backs my theory of more games being a advantage. You get battle hardened, without a linear league system like most sports thatâs an advantage.
Another example of this is the reverse, Dublin certainly have suffered because of a lack of competition this year. The Munster hurling champions regularly suffer the same.
Maybe you should get off the barstool or the armchair and actually play the game, you would understand it better then.
[QUOTE=âcaoimhaoin, post: 1060331, member: 273â]Just because they have an advantage, playing more competitive games IMO, does not mean they are or were good enough to actually win.
My main point is they lose because they are not good enough anyway, it has fuck all to do with playing more games.
Your Tyrone example bizarrely (you should give yourself a clamping for that) backs my theory of more games being a advantage. You get battle hardened, without a linear league system like most sports thatâs an advantage.
Another example of this is the reverse, Dublin certainly have suffered because of a lack of competition this year. The Munster hurling champions regularly suffer the same.
Maybe you should get off the barstool or the armchair and actually play the game, you would understand it better then.[/QUOTE]
You really have no understanding of the nuance of an argument at all. The point Iâve consistently made is that a tough route with competitive football, such as Tyrone had in 2005, can prove a benefit in individual years. But it will catch up with you. Tyrone were punch drunk both physically and mentally in 2006 as a result of their efforts in 2005. They didnât lose because they âwerenât good enoughâ, no more than Dublin lost because they âwerenât good enoughâ this year. Whereas in 2005 the toughness of Tyroneâs route proved an advantage, in 2006 it was a huge disadvantage. Under your broad brush logic Tyroneâs tough route in 2006 should have been a huge advantage.
Same with Donegal 2012 v Donegal 2013. You canât do that year on year and this what Ulster teams have to deal with. Kerry generally have to expend far less energy to put themselves within striking range of an All-Ireland than Ulster teams, ie last 8 or last 4. Same with Dublin at the moment. Dublin and Kerry will almost certainly be back in the last four at least next year, i) because they are the two best teams, but ii) also because of their easy route. I wouldnât bet much money that Donegal will be back there. Mayoâs easy route to the last 8 has also allowed them to become year on year All-Ireland contenders. I doubt theyâd have reached the last four every year since 2011 if they had to play in Ulster.
Donegal benefitted from having a tougher route against an untested Dublin in 2014. They suffered badly from having a tougher route against an untested Mayo in 2013. Under your logic Donegal had all the advantages going into that match. Swings and roundabouts which prove my point.
Again, how do your square your competing assertions
i) that a tougher route is always of benefit
and ii) itâs stupid to âtire yourself outâ in the provincial championship
Is it only teams trained by you that are able to play savage, intense football all summer long without having to expend any energy?
Its usually only 2 weeks isnât it, maybe 3 weeks in some recent years?
[QUOTE=âcaoimhaoin, post: 1060305, member: 273â]If your aim is to win an All Ireland then aim at that. Ulster, since the back door, is really way down the pecking order.
If teams were tiring themselves out in ulster then they were just plain stupid.
What it really is of course is they are not good enough in most cases. And when they were good enough they were successful. Itâs that simple.
Tyrone definitely aimed at September on a few occasions.
Kerry players play in the county league all year where they are just as likely to get injuries, they never whinge about that. Obviously itâs not Ulster championship but itâs still football and highly competitive[/QUOTE]
Unlike the other provincial championships, the Ulster Championship still holds huge weight - you could see how much it meant to Donegal this year, despite the fact it was their third in four years and they won an All Ireland in between. No team in Ulster aims for an All Ireland before Ulster, the priority is Ulster and only outside of that is looked at once they get out of it, it was and always has been and Tyrone would never have looked ahead to the AI series before Ulster.
Can Kevin tell us which years Tyrone didnât take Ulster seriously?
I agree with all the points made by @Sidney[/USER] and think [USER=273]@caoimhaoin 's opinion is contradictory.
Itâs incredibly amusing though and to be encouraged.
If you are serious about an all Ireland then thatâs what you aim towards.
I can understand a team wanting to win Ulster and often a all Ireland contender will win it as they are simply better than most opposition.
But it is not harming them in any way by playing 3 games. Itâs hard for any county going into qualifiers. I would agree that a losing finalist has it tough, but thatâs the same for everyone.
I donât think the championship is fair or proper in many ways. Everyone should play the same amount of games.
[QUOTE=âcaoimhaoin, post: 1060499, member: 273â]If you are serious about an all Ireland then thatâs what you aim towards.
I can understand a team wanting to win Ulster and often a all Ireland contender will win it as they are simply better than most opposition.
But it is not harming them in any way by playing 3 games. Itâs hard for any county going into qualifiers. I would agree that a losing finalist has it tough, but thatâs the same for everyone.
I donât think the championship is fair or proper in many ways. Everyone should play the same amount of games.[/QUOTE]
Itâs hard to take seriously the opinions of a man who thinks the Provincial Championships equate to the O Byrne Cup/FBD League. Yet then goes and lauds the Munster Championship when Cork wins it.
[QUOTE=âSidney, post: 1060374, member: 183â]You really have no understanding of the nuance of an argument at all. The point Iâve consistently made is that a tough route with competitive football, such as Tyrone had in 2005, can prove a benefit in individual years. But it will catch up with you. Tyrone were punch drunk both physically and mentally in 2006 as a result of their efforts in 2005. They didnât lose because they âwerenât good enoughâ, no more than Dublin lost because they âwerenât good enoughâ this year. Whereas in 2005 the toughness of Tyroneâs route proved an advantage, in 2006 it was a huge disadvantage. Under your broad brush logic Tyroneâs tough route in 2006 should have been a huge advantage.
Same with Donegal 2012 v Donegal 2013. You canât do that year on year and this what Ulster teams have to deal with. Kerry generally have to expend far less energy to put themselves within striking range of an All-Ireland than Ulster teams, ie last 8 or last 4. Same with Dublin at the moment. Dublin and Kerry will almost certainly be back in the last four at least next year, i) because they are the two best teams, but ii) also because of their easy route. I wouldnât bet much money that Donegal will be back there. Mayoâs easy route to the last 8 has also allowed them to become year on year All-Ireland contenders. I doubt theyâd have reached the last four every year since 2011 if they had to play in Ulster.
Donegal benefitted from having a tougher route against an untested Dublin in 2014. They suffered badly from having a tougher route against an untested Mayo in 2013. Under your logic Donegal had all the advantages going into that match. Swings and roundabouts which prove my point.
Again, how do your square your competing assertions
i) that a tougher route is always of benefit
and ii) itâs stupid to âtire yourself outâ in the provincial championship
Is it only teams trained by you that are able to play savage, intense football all summer long without having to expend any energy?[/QUOTE]
Not competing year on year is far more to do with psychology and the level of depth in a county. In Tyrone winning an AI medal makes you a legend immediately. In Kerry winning one is never enough and if you go off the boil there will be someone just as good coming along.
As he admitted McGuiness over trained Donegal last year, so there is one answer. Harte was either too loyal to some players or the drop to the next guy was too far back talent wise. Thatâs an issue with smaller picks or a difference in tradition.
[QUOTE=âcaoimhaoin, post: 1060499, member: 273â]If you are serious about an all Ireland then thatâs what you aim towards.
I can understand a team wanting to win Ulster and often a all Ireland contender will win it as they are simply better than most opposition.
But it is not harming them in any way by playing 3 games. Itâs hard for any county going into qualifiers. I would agree that a losing finalist has it tough, but thatâs the same for everyone.
I donât think the championship is fair or proper in many ways. Everyone should play the same amount of games.[/QUOTE]
Yes, it is. Ulster means something to all the counties, they know if they want to win it (which they do) then they have to at their very best from the start. The likes of Kerry, Mayo wouldnât be too upset at not winning their provincials but know that they have a fairly handy route into the last 12/8 and can tailor their plans for that. Ulster teams donât have that luxury and itâs a reason why Kerry are back in their every year. In the last two years Kerry have been quite ordinary until the semi (the Cork hammering didnât really tell much given how awful Cork were).
Ulster teams are required to be playing at a very high level at the start of May, that is hard to sustain up until September.
[QUOTE=âcaoimhaoin, post: 1060503, member: 273â]Not competing year on year is far more to do with psychology and the level of depth in a county. In Tyrone winning an AI medal makes you a legend immediately. In Kerry winning one is never enough and if you go off the boil there will be someone just as good coming along.
As he admitted McGuiness over trained Donegal last year, so there is one answer. Harte was either too loyal to some players or the drop to the next guy was too far back talent wise. Thatâs an issue with smaller picks or a difference in tradition.[/QUOTE]
Oh, weâre back to this again. McGuinness never stated that he over trained Donegal in 2013, you just wrongly inferred he did.
You are the only person who believes that.
[QUOTE=âIl Bomber Destro, post: 1060505, member: 2533â]Yes, it is. Ulster means something to all the counties, they know if they want to win it (which they do) then they have to at their very best from the start. The likes of Kerry, Mayo wouldnât be too upset at not winning their provincials but know that they have a fairly handy route into the last 12/8 and can tailor their plans for that. Ulster teams donât have that luxury and itâs a reason why Kerry are back in their every year. In the last two years Kerry have been quite ordinary until the semi (the Cork hammering didnât really tell much given how awful Cork were).
Ulster teams are required to be playing at a very high level at the start of May, that is hard to sustain up until September.[/QUOTE]
The reason Kerry are back every year is a phenomenal love for football within the county. To suggest anything else is completely misinformed horse shit. I donât think you have any understanding of the depth in Kerry.
They have gone thru the qualifiers and won as well.
No, we had a thread where a number of us (>1) pulled you up on that wrong inference.
[QUOTE=âcaoimhaoin, post: 1060509, member: 273â]The reason Kerry are back every year is a phenomenal love for football within the county. To suggest anything else is completely misinformed horse shit. I donât think you have any understanding of the depth in Kerry.
They have gone thru the qualifiers and won as well.[/QUOTE]
The reason Kerry are back every year is because they only have to beat a shit Cork team to get to the last 8. In 2012 for instance, they made it to an All Ireland semi final by virtue of beating one team in the top two divisions of the national league. That is a standard enough path for them.