Ashes

It’s a bit of a surprise from what I know in that he got in ahead of Shah and Key who were considered ahead in the pecking order.

For me it’s just another reason to support Australia. I’ve had this debate countless times with thebhoy and bandage but I just cannot rally behind an Irishman playing for England and Wales. Anyway, irrespective of the country he declared for, I think it makes a mockery of the sport when guys with zero blood connections with a country (who live there solely for sporting reasons) represent them. I felt the same about Paul Butler playing for Ireland - married to an Irishwoman: that’s pathetic. Every right to take out Irish nationality but to be picked for our soccer team was a joke.

Delighted for Joyce, what a tremendous boost for cricket in the country. The thing is I want England and Wales to pummel these mouthy, arrogant fooks yet the only way Ed will get in is if one of the main batsmen performs brutally which could impact E&W’s chances. Although maybe a little ankle sprain for Paul Collingwood wouldn’t go amiss.

I was investigating the odds earlier and I see that E&W are 11/2 to win the series with The Convicts at 2/9. I think these are really generous odds - let’s not forget this is a seriously aging Australia team and I don’t think E&W will fear them at all especially guys like Freddie, KP and Strauss. The crucial thing is the form of Harmison - if he fires then so will E&W.

I’m not sure the Australians have enough firepower to take 20 wickets per game and I’d also have question marks over the batting of Watson, Martyn and the openers. That said Cook, Bell and Collingwood are relatively unproven but I think it’ll be extremely close.

How will the selection of Joyce for England and Wales benefit Irish cricket more than the other 4 Irishmen who have played for England in the past?

If there was a proper test and one day structure in place then benefits might accrue to Ireland - as I’ve argued before a second tier of nations earning the right to test status intermittently and supported by their players would help advance the sport of cricket in those countries. As it is the defection of our best player to a rival team does nothing to support the game here. Much like the decision of Declan D’Arcy to play for Dublin did not help football in Leitrim in any way, shape or form.

Weve had this debate before on the old board dont have the time to go over old ground but the Declan Darcy comparison is invalid. In theory both Leitrim and Dublin can win an All Ireland but Ireland cant win a test series as we dont have a test side. Therefore, its not a case of being a turncoat or anything of the like. Joyce has more than played his part in the advancement of cricket in Ireland and hopefully his future success with the E&W test side will be the springboard to get the next generation involved in cricket here. Then maybe one day we will have a test team but with that day being so far off what good would come out of Ed Joyce not playing test cricket for anyone?

I never claimed that Joyce could win a test series with Ireland. I simply refuted the claim you made that his defection was a “tremendous boost for cricket in this country.” It’s clearly not, and the effect of his move is similar to that of D’Arcy’s move to Dublin. The rest of the situations are not comparable - D’Arcy had genuine Dublin credentials for example - but the impact of the move on sport in the respective regions is the same.

Like before well have to agree to disagree as I think its a super shot in the arm for the game here.

Its a great boost for cricket in Ireland that one of our own is deemed good enough to perform in an Ashes series. In terms of publicity and generating interest in the game it is huge and probably bigger than the ODI team qualifying for their first ever World Cup.

It proves that the talent is here in the country and other talented youngsters can now see there is a potential professional career for them in cricket if they apply themselves like Joyce. He is in effect a role model for the next generation of Irish cricketers almost acting as a standard bearer setting the targets that other young Irish cricketers need to match.

As a result I believe that his presence in test match cricket will have a positive impact on the chances of Ireland assuming test status in the future. In effect he is benefiting the E&W team now as well as the game in his homeland in years to come. This is a win-win situation rather than depriving himself of the chance of operating at the highest level which benefits nobody.

Delighted to see Gideon Haigh back in the Guardian. Superb writer.


Last throw for Warne to make the difference
[i]By its usual standards, the Warnosphere has been fairly tranquil of late, but then Shane Warne’s standards are a scale uniquely calibrated.

Gideon Haigh[/i]
“Aussie spin star in sledging shock.” The sight of such recent headlines in the sports pages of Australian newspapers would have filled the average reader with a familiar foreboding. Ho-hum. Warnie in the soup again. At least there is nothing inflatable involved this time.

The maledictor sin-binned for a fortnight, it turned out, was Stuart MacGill, usually known for the size of his vocabulary not its saltiness. And on reflection there was never need to read further. Warne sledging scarcely shocks his mother nowadays, and Warne in any headline is always just “Warne”. Yet somehow, especially with an Ashes series in the offing, that alone is enough to conjure up myriad images.

By its usual standards, in fact, the Warnosphere has been fairly tranquil of late: no slappers, no smoking, no mystery balls and so far only one first-class wicket, in Western Australia’s Shaun Marsh - a piquant one for anoraks, given that Warne had also dismissed Shaun’s father, the Test batsman Geoff, in December 1992. He is an analogue kind of guy and his three-month-old blog features just 10 posts and five comments. But, of course, Warne’s usual standards are a scale uniquely calibrated. Even while doing not much he has been the subject of a scathing biography, responded with a counter-punching autobiography, dissed his coach, damned the media and danced around the subject of reconciliation with his wife. Each, it turns out, has revealed a little of Warne’s stature in the Australian sporting landscape.

The biography, Paul Barry’s much-hyped Spun Out, proved to be a publishing doosra, stalling at 13,000 sales after Father’s Day, then unexpectedly coming back the other way, en route to the remainder table; it was outperformed over the same period by the paperback of Steve Waugh’s autobiography, which has already sold 180,000 hardbacks. Depending on the reader, Barry’s airy assertion that Warne had slept with a thousand women either taxed taste or stretched credulity. The title might well have been Warne Out, for the response suggests a public largely inured to the subject’s escapades, happy enough for him to do as he pleases, providing he remains off the streets and frightens no horses.

Warne’s My Illustrated Career, in its own autohagiographical way, is actually a far more illuminating book, unconsciously amusing in places when Warne feels his age (“I am one of the older guys and there are times when I feel it”) and plays the role of elder statesman (Kevin Pietersen has “a great future as long as he doesn’t get carried away with off-field stuff and keeps his feet on the ground”). It is even rather touching and candid about the effect of his estrangement from his wife, Simone, during last year’s Ashes: "I put on a brave face in public but when my hotel-room door was shut I wasn’t too good. I got upset looking at photos of my kids, just wishing they were still around.

“Michael Clarke was a big help. I felt a bit for ‘Pup’ as I offloaded all my troubles on to him, at a time in his life when he was trying to establish himself in the side and had his own issues, but he is my closest friend and mateship is the most important thing in life and he was there for me, and I won’t forget that, I really appreciated it. He spent hours with me, listening when I wanted to get something off my chest. I remember one night later in the tour when the two of us sat in the corner of a bar both pouring our hearts out. After a few pints and a few more vodka Red Bulls I think I said I loved him. Jeez we were poleaxed that night.”

Yet it must say something about Warne that in a time of strife he relied for solace on an unmarried 24-year-old making his first Ashes tour rather than an older and more experienced peer. Warne might well have “felt a bit” for Clarke; he shifted a heavy burden on to pretty callow shoulders. Was it that sympathy elsewhere was lacking? Was it that others might have judged him? The passage is an exhibit in the case that Warne has become a state within the state of this Australian XI, the high-risk subsidiary of a blue-chip parent company.

Another exhibit is the only pictorial appearance in the book of John Buchanan, who uncannily resembles Julius Kelp in Jerry Lewis’ The Nutty Professor. As the bespectacled Buchanan wields a camcorder for no apparent reason, Warne looks wearily away, sighing of his “nerdy looking” coach in the caption: “Perhaps he’s had an idea for the next team meeting.” Warne’s view of Buchanan’s shortcomings are scarcely ambiguous - even less so than after he sulked through “boot camp”. Of last year’s Ashes Warne grumbles: “I am not sure we did a lot wrong but I would say that behind the scenes we had a lot of team meetings which I’m not sure were always very productive. I’m not saying that’s the reason but it was just talking around in circles rather than getting out and doing something.” The longer-term reminiscences aren’t over-fond either: “I remember at his first team meeting he said he was there to improve us as people first and cricketers second but I am not sure the responsibility of a coach extends as far as life skills.”

Warne can probably sit out Buchanan, whose tenure as coach is due to expire after next year’s World Cup, hovering like a recalcitrant schoolboy at the back of the classroom. But much will hinge on the choice of Buchanan’s successor, whom Warne has publicly opined should be a Test player of distinction, and probably look a little more like Wally Lewis than Jerry.

The imponderable in those considerations is Warne’s personal future, now delicately poised, with him and Simone maintaining a loose orbit round one another and their children but passionately protective of their privacy. Warne was incensed when a female television journalist accosted him after his dismissal at the Waca Ground to ask him to comment on rumours they had reconciled: a brave move without a helmet. A more “up close and personal” cricket coverage has been mooted for this summer’s Ashes, with the revival of the old boundary-edge interview. Warne may be tempted to issue press releases instead.

What keeps Warne going? This summer it is probable that he will pass 1,000 international wickets: he has 978, composed of 685 from 140 Tests and 293 from 194 limited-overs games. But his great rival for bowling’s blue riband, Muttiah Muralitharan, already has 1,082, and with his edge in years will probably leave Warne’s records in his wake in due course. The Australian captaincy, too, is now, almost certainly, permanently out of reach.

The Ashes, then, looms disproportionately large in Warne’s plans - for, after that, perhaps even he does not know. Cricket has been a faithful recourse for Warne; when all else has gone pear-shaped, the game has always been there for him. But Warne, who grew up in the bosom of a loving home and family, might well be prepared to make sacrifices for one of his own. Perhaps, in due course, Warne will have a shock for us that is genuine and meaningful.

With Thursday’s first Ashes test approaching rapidly, England batsman Ian Bell has been taken to hospital with heavy bruising to his wrist after being hit by a delivery in practice. If he is ruled out, Ed Joyce will make his test debut.

I like Belly. Indeed I tipped him for greatness in Spring 2004 when the bhoy plumped for Michael Pup Clarke instead. Its interesting how Clarke after the highs of scoring tons in India has dropped back while Bell, after enduring a horrible Ashes debut, has started an ascent again after his quality performances last Winter in India and Pakistan and he then retained that standard against Pakistan in the summer.

Bell was a definite starter for E&W with Clarke out of the picture for Australia. Now suddenly Shane Watson is out with Pup back in and starting and Bell is a serious doubt. Much as I like Ian Bell I would love to see Joyce get to play. It would be immense if he did.

indeed i am very excited about the tonight’s prospects. i’ll be in bed at 6 to wake again at 11 and then try my damndest to watch every delivery for the night.

looks like bell will play which is a boost for england definitely. they’ve had enough disruption, he’s played well of late and whilst i hate to admit it looks like he’s maturing into somebody who could seal a place in the side. afterall he’s only about 24 or so, so he’s years left in him. as bandage stated alot will depend on harmo to deliver for the poms, he 's notorious for not touring well, saying himself it seems he’s allergic to his passport!! but seeing as there’s not the cultural difference in oz than there is in a place like india or pakistan i’m hoping he’s not too affected.

sad to see watson have to pull out but delighted to see the pup getting his chance, i’ve no doubt he’ll prove himself once given the opportunity. unless he gets tons of runs i can still see them bringing in watson for the next test if fit, he brings more balance to the side and gives punter more options.

joyce being involved with the ashes is huge for irish cricket. cricket in our country is and probably will always remain a minority sport. however, for a sport which has the playing profile that it has, it gets a remarkable amount of media coverage, joyce’s inclusion in the squad was covered by every paper going, and his possible inclusion was in the paper again this morning. he’s raising the profile for irish cricket more than any other irish man could ever do, when’s the last time trent johnston or john mooney were mentioned in the papers, fooking last summer that’s when. ireland are playing competitive cricket in the far east soon and there’s been no mention of it. to say that joyce’s inclusion for england does nothing for the game here is plain ridiculous. the more coverage cricket gets here the more possibility of the game growing.

6 hours to go folks. I hope it’s as good as the last one. Pity I won’t get to see much if live though.

What’s the story with highlights on BBC? I won’t see any of it live so I’ll be relying on the highlights but it won’t be anything like the same. As I said to Bandage in Fraser’s the other week (that pub is the home of Irish cricket) when I watch Warne bowl I want to see the whole experience in real time. It’s the build up of tension between the bowler and batsman that makes it so enjoyable. I don’t want to see edited highlights of the scoring shots and the dismissals and near misses. I want to see the dot balls that cause the unnerving of the batsman in the first place.

Half an hour highlights on BBC2 every night which is a shame. I think you can watch more extended highlights on BBC Interactive if you hit the red button but like you say 30 mins is only enough for boundaries, wickets and drops so you miss the cat and mouse and build up of pressure in the individual battles between bowler and batsman.

A conservative selection from E&W:
Strauss, Cook, Bell, Pietersen, Collingwood, Flintoff, Jones, Giles, Hoggard, Anderson, Harmison.

I really thought they’d play Panesar as the spinner but it looks like Giles’ batting ability has earned him the place. A huge gamble given he’s been out for the last year too. Jimmy Anderson in for Mahmood too which is a big call.

Waited up to see who won the toss - Punter guessed heads correctly - and Australia are having a bat. Good toss to win by all accounts.

Is KP higher up the order than expected Bandage?

Reading the preview on the Guardian over-by-over and they are absolutely fuming that TKOS got the nod over Monty.

just quickly on the team selections i 'd a feeling they’d go for giles over panesar. giles does all three disciplines well, he held some very important catches at gully in the last series, is a handy bowler albeit not as potent as monty and he can produce some very handy runs at the bottom of the order. without him coming in at 8 they’ve got 4 no 11s, in monty, harmo, hoggy and andersen. giles had to play.

stuart clarke is a selection of experience and he’s an up and down bowler who’ll hit the cracks that’ll apparently show up on the gabba surface.

was surprised to see them go for andersen over mahmood, but i don’t rate either of them, but having looked at the first hour or so, andersen has been the pick of the bowlers.

as it sit her watching the first hour or so of the series, i’m reminded of the headlines of one of the aussie paper’s a few weeks back when england were thrashed by the Prime Ministers XI. the headline read something like ‘how did we lose the ashes to these blokes?!’. as i say after the first hour, one would have to think similar.

it’s probably correct to start with what i believe were the factors why england won in 2005. the aussies all profess that they were outplayed and england deserved it, and i agree. however if you look at actually how they beat them, and how that will translate to this series i’m not so sure of england’s success.

at the start of the 2005 series i couldn’t see england winning because i couldn’t see their bowling attack getting the 20 wickets a test for victory. and how i was wrong. the english led by their four fantastic seam bowlers caused untold damage to the aussies. guys with 50+ test averages were made go back to the drawing board after that series and change their approach, amazing stuff. but the success of harmo, hoggy, freddie and simon jones was largely down to bowling good areas, but more importantly the phenomonon of reverse swing. what this meant was that at all stages of a days play, england 's bowlers were a threat. with the new ball, hoggy would swing it causing haydos loads of dramas, and harmo (not really much a swing bowler) would thrash the hard ball at the top order. then when freddie and jones came on the ball would either be still swinging or about to reverse. so from the first over to the 90 england were a threat.

this will not be the case in this series, england come into the first test with an injured harmo, an off form hoggy and freddie returning from injury (jones ruled out through injury). so they are hardly in fantastic shape. the ball will not swing much either, aussie conditions are not well known for swing bowling and the make of ball that they use, the kookaburra, is not one which tends to swing, or do anything for that matter past the 30 over. so for me, the potency of the english attack is far far lessened by the above factors. also, for those of you who didn’t see harmo’s first spell it was terrible, first ball of the series, the crowd cheering in anticipation and he rocks up and bowls a wide , so wide in fact that it was taken by freddie at second slip!! harmo is notoriously a bad tourist, he looked off sorts this morning, doesn’t bode well at all. i predict australia to post huge totals and not be threatened by the attack as they were in 2005.

if you look at the batting line-up for england, their two best batsmen are not there. the lack of tres and vaughan is huge, they got vital runs on a consistent basis for england not just in the 2005 series but for the past few years. whilst i have time for cook, collingwood and bell (of late) none of them have had the huge responsibility of getting runs. if you know that vaughan or tres is there too, you can bank on either one of then hitting it off and there’s less pressure on you. bell at three, could be hit or miss but it might also mean that he’ll be set before warne comes onto bowl. playing kp at five is a good move, he’s had trouble in the past with the quicks so it’s wise to hold him back a bit for the softer ball.

as bandage pointed out at the time, vaughan’s performance as skipper of that ashes side was fantastic. he leads from the front but was also blessed with the ability to make the right decisions at crucial moments. the jury is still out on whether or not ponting is a fantastic captain or not, but he’ll have learnt loads from the 2005 series whereas fred has very little experience. now it wouldn’t surprise me if fred does an exceptional job, however from seeing him in india and during the summer he hasn’t impressed with his decision making, either holding himself back or over-bowling himself.

for now that’s all i can think of, but am sure there’s bucket loads more.

fred just got the first wkt, good ball to haydos caught at second. the ashes has begun…

also, the aussies are gritty competitive fooks.

the sky sports coverage has already begun to annoy me. i miss richie benaud, tony grieg, paul allott et al.

and that was it really for the night, wasn’t it?
346-3, England are already hoping for rain.
Pietersen doing a fair stint bowling, even Bell having a go for an over.
Joyce came in as a sub there, does that count as his Test debut?

And in response to your earlier point Rock, the selection of Joyce would be different from the previous Irishmen to have played Test cricket in that two of those are from the North, one was born in “the Curragh camp” in 1875 (presumably to British army stock) and soon returned to England where he lived the remainder of his life, and the other two played for England in the 1880s, when - according to one GAA commentator last night - cricket was the main sport in Ireland.

And even if you don’t agree that Joyce’s case is objectively different, as the Bhoy points out, the key thing is the debate engendered. Even if Joyce’s decision were incorrect, the amount of coverage given to Irish cricket as a result is far greater than would be the case if he weren’t involved, and I would agree can only be beneficial to the game.

Rip shane warne