Interesting effort by Miguel Delaney. I know rocko or someone said they don’t rate him but I find his stuff quite decent and he puts in a bit more effort in research and the likes than most of the lazy bastard sports hacks out there.
This must have taken some serious research.
Presume there’ll be complaints that any English teams are in there but Celtic in at 8th might please the lads who’re most likely to complain!
He has some points system based on what the teams won etc which he explains on the site
Rank Team Points Country
1 Ajax 1965-73 1575 Netherlands
2 Real Madrid 1953-60 1470 Spain
3 Liverpool 1977-84 1300 England
4 Barcelona 2008-11 1275 Spain
5 Bayern Munich 1971-76 1260 Germany
6 Benfica 1959-68 1165 Portugal
7 Inter Milan 1962-67 1145 Italy
8 Celtic 1966-75 1140 Scotland
9 AC Milan 1991-95 1135 Italy
10 Torino 1945-49 1110 Italy
11 Manchester United 2006-09 1095 England
12 Barcelona 1988-94 1085 Spain
13 Juventus 1976-86 1070 Italy
14 Ajax 1993-96 1065 Netherlands
15 Bayern Munich 1998-2003 1055 Germany
16 AC Milan 1987-90 1050 Italy
17 Juventus 1994-98 1045 Italy
18 Hamburg 1978-83 1030 Germany
19 Marseille 1988-93 1020 France
20 Manchester United 1998-2001 1015 England
21 Inter 2008-10 1010 Italy
22 Real Madrid 1964-69 1005 Spain
23 Real Madrid 1985-90 1000 Spain
24 Red Star Belgrade 1987-92 995 Serbia
25 Barcelona 2004-06 985 Spain
26 Barcelona 1958-61 980 Spain
27 Juventus 1930-35 970 Italy
28 Nottingham Forest 1977-80 965 England
29 Steaua Bucharest 1985-89 960 Romania
30 FC Porto 2002-04 955 Portugal
31 Feyenoord 1968-74 945 Netherlands
32 PSV Eindhoven 1985-89 930 Netherlands
33 Real Madrid 1960-64 925 Spain
34 Borussia Monchengladbach 1969-78 915 Germany
35 Real Madrid 1996-2003 905 Spain
36 St Etienne 1973-76 890 France
37 Barcelona 1950-54 880 Spain
38 Chelsea 2004-07 860 England
39 Liverpool 1985-90 845 England
40 Bayern Munich 1984-90 840 Germany
41 Manchester United 1964-68 835 England
42 Real Madrid 1977-81 830 Spain
43 Milan 2002-07 825 Italy
44 Aston Villa 1893-1900 820 England
45 FC Porto 1984-87 810 Portugal
46 Preston 1888-92 805 England
47 Arsenal 2001-05 780 England
48 Stade Reims 1952-59 770 France
49 Tottenham 1960-63 765 England
50 Milan 1954-59 755 Italy
Hope he didn’t waste too much of his time on it. Utter gash.
Nice idea and the Top 10 are pretty much bang on though you could argue the order in myriad different ways which is the point I suppose.
Not sure I entirely accept his rationale on splitting the dynasties. Seems pretty harsh to split Ferguson’s teams up but allowing other teams a decade to improve their score.
I’d have Celtic at #2 behind Ajax. Celtic defeated Inter in the 1967 final so it galls me to see Inter 1962-67 ahead of us at #7. I know he has Real Madrid 1953-60 at #2 but this team was effectively the same team as Real Madrid 1964-69 and Celtic beat them in Alfredo Di Stefano’s testimonial in 1967. Fair enough, that Ajax team at #1 knocked Celtic out during that period.
wtf would some bogger know about football
utter utter tripe & no surprise gola finds it interesting
Our expert Miguel asks the question, ‘would Liverpool have won more European Cups if their fans hadn’t gone on an evil, bloodthirsty, disgustingly murderous rampage?’
http://eircomsports.eircom.net/News/english-clubs-ban-European-Cup.aspx
The debate: would English clubs have actually won the European Cup between 1986 and 1991?
13:37, 20 Jun 2011
Miguel Delaney
Miguel Delaney weighs up the evidence to attempt to answer whether Everton, Liverpool or Arsenal would have claimed Europe’s greatest prize in the years of the Heysel ban
It’s the great frustration of Everton fans. But then it was hardly ideal for Liverpool either.
Between 1985 and 1991, both clubs produced teams that can be considered among their greatest of all time. Everton had won a double of league and Cup Winners Cup in 1985, with that domestic title the first of two in three years. Liverpool, meanwhile, claimed the only domestic double in their history before then producing one of their most wondrous sides in 1987-88.
But, between 1985 and 1991 of course, those sides also never got the chance to truly crown their quality. English teams were banned from the European competition after a decade of crowd trouble culminated in the disaster at Heysel.
As well as for reasons beyond the tragically obvious, that dark day marked a clear breaking point in football history. Before it, English teams had won seven European Cups in nine years and lost that very 1985 final. After it, the European Cup saw its most democratic and open era since the late 60s. Between 1967-69, individual teams from Scotland, England and Italy won the competition. Between 1986-88 though, there was an even greater variety among the victors.
First off, the 1985-86 season saw Steaua Bucharest claim Romania’s only ever European Cup. Porto then won Portugal’s first in 26 years before PSV lifted Holland’s first in 15.
For many commentators, such a stark difference between eras indicates that the Merseyside clubs markedly adding to England’s roll of honour would have been a fait accompli.
But there is enough evidence to suggest we shouldn’t be so assumptive.
Granted, you can never be assumptive about such issues at all. All we can do is weigh up the available evidence and attempt to come to a highly qualified conclusion.
To begin with though, England’s outright domination of the European Cup had already ended three years prior. Between Villa’s win in 1982 and Liverpool’s loss in 1985, the competition’s benchmark country was actually Italy with one victory and two finalists. And, perhaps emphasising the shift, Liverpool themselves were still suffering the absence of Graeme Souness in midfield, who had decamped to Serie A.
Admittedly, that relative decline is offset by England’s overall performance on the continent. From 1983-85, they had four finalists across all three competitions with Liverpool, Spurs and Everton winning three of them.
But the nationality of the rest of the finalists in that period also heralded a coming variety in the European Cup. The 18 read:
4 - Italy, England
2 - Portugal, Belgium, Spain
1 - Germany, Scotland, Hungary, Austria
In that context, a spread of European champions in 1986-88 from leagues as diverse (and, at that point, disregarded) as Romania, Portugal and Holland isn’t utterly outlandish.
What’s more, while the absence of English teams was undoubtedly a significant factor in such variety, it was far from the only one.
Just as influential was the absence of any seeding system. As such, many top-ranked teams met each other very early, clearing a path for the rest. As barely needs to be stated, the entrance of English teams would have altered the very draws themselves.
What’s more, the lack of glamour among the eventual winners actually overshadowed the fact that some of the competitors were of the highest quality. This period, after all, saw some of the best regarded squads in the history of the Italian, German, French and Spanish leagues.
Most obviously, there was Diego Maradona’s Napoli as well as a Bayern Munich team that serially reached European finals before providing the core of West Germany’s 1990 World Cup winners. Above all though, there was the ‘Quinta del Buitre’ Real Madrid team. Having won two successive Uefa Cups, five Liga titles in a row and broken all sorts of scoring and points records along the way, Emilio Butragueno’s glorious side were the Europe’s team to beat at that time. The only problem was that, when it came down to it, somebody always did. For three successive seasons they were eliminated by the eventual European Cup winners.
The most galling campaign for the quinta was surely 1987-88. Having beaten Napoli in the first round, defending champions FC Porto in the second and then eliminated that Bayern in the quarters, Real had surely cleared the path to claim a long-awaited seventh European Cup. Ultimately though, they succumbed to Guus Hiddink’s minimalist approach in Europe. PSV drew with them twice while scoring one of just three goals in their last five games – all of them away – to lift the trophy. Such is the often random nature of knock-out football. When it comes to actually determining the best, it lies an awful lot more than leagues.
As such, although the English champions may well have looked like beating some of those eventual champions, there is much less of a guarantee they would have eliminated such marquee sides early on.
Indeed, even at the league’s height, English champions didn’t escape such anomalies. Bob Paisley’s Liverpool were twice knocked out before the quarter-finals by sides as surprising as Dinamo Tbilisi and CSKA Sofia. The Bulgarians also did the same to Nottingham Forest.
And whether the same would have happened between 1985 and 1991? All we can do is weigh up the evidence…
1985-86 European Cup
English champions: Everton
European Cup final: Steaua Bucharest 0-0 Barcelona (Steaua win on penalties)
The previous season, a wonderfully balanced Everton team had been utterly brilliant. Along the way to winning two trophies, they had scored 88 goals in 42 games and collected 90 points – a total that’s towards the top end of English history.
And, for the most part, they carried that exquisite form into the following season. In 1985-86, for example, they hit 87 goals and accumulated 86 points. Negligible? Not really.
There was one crucial difference that led to a few starker contrasts. In the summer, Andy Gray had been replaced by Gary Lineker. And although the England striker claimed the golden boot and all manner of individual awards, he arguably had a subtle but significant effect on the team as a whole.
In contrast to the all-action Gray, Lineker was a finisher who required very regular service from the likes of Kevin Sheedy, Trevor Steven and Peter Reid. Essentially, the potential angles of Everton’s attacks were reduced. They swapped a beneficial unpredictability in their overall play for the predictability of a guaranteed goalscorer. You might call it Ruud van Nistelrooy syndrome.
So, although that meant they scored as often over the majority of the season, it might well have ensured they were too predictable when it came right down to it. Their attack was always funnelled. That may well have been the difference between the two trophies of the previous season and the empty cabinet of 1986.
On the other hand, Lineker might have actually better suited the tactical minimalism of mid-80s European football. Given the premium on goalscoring chances, his predatory instincts may well have been perfect.
Certainly, the goalless final was his sort of game (and it is telling that Barcelona then went and signed him that summer).
But, in truth, that staid showpiece wasn’t the fairest reflection of Steaua Bucharest who – as Anderlecht manager Arie Haan put it – were a team with a glorious passing rhythm.
Elsewhere, the field was made up of teams at the wrong end of cycles. Both that Anderlecht and Alex Ferguson’s Aberdeen were coming to the end of theirs while Lothar Matthaus and Klaus Augenthaler were only just building something at Bayern Munich.
Despite their own changes, it’s hard not to think that Everton would have been strongly competitive. Particularly given the European experience they accumulated the previous campaign.
Verdict: when considering form and the opposing field, on the whole this was arguably England’s best chance of the period. And, in that sense, Everton fans can feel rightly aggrieved.
1986-87
English champions: Liverpool
European Cup final: FC Porto 2-1 Bayern Munich
Despite winning the club’s only ever double the previous season, this was a Liverpool that badly required revitalisation. That was proved by the fact they finished well behind Everton in the league as well as Kenny Dalglish’s extensive changes to the team’s attack in the summer of 1987.
In effect, it was the team’s old resilience that had actually brought the double. After a mediocre start to the campaign by their high standards, Liverpool found enough of their old focus to win 10 of their last 11 games. Whether that would have been enough in Europe is another matter though, particularly given their domestic travails. The extra spark of the early 80s had temporarily gone.
Indeed, although Porto were somewhat freak winners in the fact that they ended Portugal’s 26-year wait for the trophy, that stat actually overshadowed the reality that they were a very strong side. They had already elminated Dynamo Kyiv – one of the sides of the decade themselves – before beating Bayern in a huge shock in the final. The likes of Paolo Futre and Rabah Madjer added an effervescence to a strong defensive base. On the other side, Bayern had already eliminated Butragueno’s Real Madrid who had themselves knocked out the remnants of Giovanni Trapattoni’s Juventus.
In that context, Liverpool may well have been squeezed out just like their 1985 conquerors. But the ultimate question is whether Liverpool’s experience would have told over a few bold young sides.
Verdict: Possibly.
1987-88
English champions: Everton
European Cup final: PSV Eindhoven 0-0 Benfica (PSV win on penalties)
In truth, an era had already ended at Goodison Park with the departure of Howard Kendall to Athletic Bilbao in the summer of 1987. And the effect of that was seen in their fourth-place finish in the league, a good 20 points behind Liverpool.
Now, granted, there are a few examples of teams finishing very low in their domestic league but still lifting Europe’s greatest prize. Villa done it while finishing 11th in the league in 1981-82. What’s more, they also suffered the departure of their league-winning manager in Ron Saunders.
But for that to happen twice in so short a span of time is stretching it. In fact, it’s unlikely that Everton side would have overcome Hiddink’s pragmatism with PSV – let alone a freescoring Real or Napoli.
Verdict: no
1988-89
English champions: Liverpool
European Cup final: Milan 4-0 Steaua Bucharest
One of the all-time great English league-winning sides and it is a pity they never got the opportunity to pit themselves against Europe’s best. An exhilarating team, Liverpool had won the title with one of the highest points per games record and one of the best scoring records in modern times.
And that had come about thanks to the glorious movement and fluidity of Barnes, Beardsley, Houghton and Aldridge in attack. To a degree, Liverpool were playing a 4-2-3-1 a good decade before it became fashionable.
The only problem was that Milan had already initiated an even greater tactical leap. Arrigo Sacchi’s exact style of pressing game had altered the landscape of European football. Not only did it set up Serie A’s – and later Juventus’s – dominance of the competition until 1998, it helped explain why it took English sides so long to catch up after missing the early years of the innovation.
Such was Liverpool’s quality that they probably would have been the best of the rest and ran Milan very close. But, as the nine goals Milan scored across their last two games of the competition emphasised, it’s hard not to think they would have had that extra edge.
Verdict: Milan still just that bit ahead
1989-90
English champions: Arsenal
European Cup final: Milan 1-0 Benfica
Given (a) how badly Arsenal struggled against Benfica with a better team in 1991-92; (B) how far they were behind Milan; and (c) how they finished fourth in the league that season, they simply couldn’t be put as anywhere near top challengers for the competition.
Verdict: no
1990-91
English champions: Liverpool
European Cup final: Red Star Belgrade 0-0 Marseille (Red Star win on penalties)
One avenue had perhaps opened with Milan’s shameful exit of the competition. They had petulantly refused to reappear when floodlights failed in the 88th minute of their quarter-final second leg against Marseille. At that point the score was 2-1 on aggregate to the French side. It was adjusted to 4-1 as Milan essentially forfeited.
But another avenue closed for Liverpool when Dalglish shocked English football with his resignation in February 1991. Many may point out that European football might have kept the fire alive. But it seems undeniable that Dalglish would have continued to suffer the delayed effects of Hillsborough regardless of the competition.
And, in purely footballing terms, it’s probable that English clubs had already fallen too far behind. Marseille had risen to Milan’s dominance with extensive spending. Red Star Belgrade had also initiated their own revolution with an exquisite fast-paced, passing game.
Verdict: no
Overall verdict
1985-86: Yes
1986-87: No but possibly
1987-88: No
1988-89: No
1989-90: No
There was no outstanding team in the European Cups from '86 to '88. Everton would have won it in 1986.
If they had won it in '86 they would have been involved again in 1987 with Liverpool and mightn’t have lost Lineker. They might well have been the two best teams in the competition.
Liverpool v Milan in 1989 would have been epic but beyond that English teams wouldn’t have done anything.
I don’t think Liverpool would have come close to Milan in 1989.
Gullit, Van Basten and Rijkaard had just won Euro 88, they had Baresi, Costacurta and Maldini at the back, Ancelotti and Donadoni in the midfield. As good as Liverpool were in an English context it’s easy to forget that England’s isolation had weakened their teams, as evidenced by Rush, Lineker and Hughes all leaving. The achievements of Aldridge, Houghton, Beardsley and Barnes were modest at best on the international stage and their ease of victories at home was reflective of the opposition as much as their own abilities.
big time- i remember genoa humped them on their return to European football . liverpool should have never been allowed back in anyway
If you think a defence of Tassotti, Baresi, Costacurta and Maldini was better than Nicol, Hansen, Ablett and Staunton you’re out of your mind. Out of your fucking mind.
Seriously though that was a terrific Liverpool team and I think they would have given Milan a better match than either Real Madrid or Steaua Bucharest, but the defence was beginning to become wobbly by 1989 and it probably would have undone them against Gullit and Van Basten.
Houghton, Whelan, McMahon, Barnes. Oh yes baby, what a midfield.
all shit
also you’d question the morality of players that joined Liverpool directly after heysel
Indded they did, the thing is though was that 87-89 team didn’t contain Mike Hooper, Mike Marsh, Don Hutchison, Mark Wright, Rob Jones, David Burrows, Dean Saunders, Nicky Tanner etc and wasn’t managed by Graeme Souness
Hooper was the sub keeper in 88/89. Jones and Wright were good players.
Souness destroyed Liverpool - he took a garden shears to them when all was needed was a pruning scissors. Selling Peter Beardsley for 1.1m and buying Dean Saunders for 2.9m must go down as one of the most crazy bits of business since 8m for Jean Alain Boumsong.
What was that Everton team like? Southall, Ratcliffe, Sheedy, Reid, Gray and who else? Surely sid, you can’t say with any certainty that they would have won it. Unless you’re messing? I’m not with it today.
Everton 1985/86 lined up something like:
Southall
Stevens
Ratcliffe
Mountfield
van den Hauwe
Heath
Reid
Steven
Sheedy
Lineker
Sharp
They were a very good team. They walked the league in 84/85 and won the Cup Winners Cup convincingly. Lost to Whiteside’s goal in the FA Cup Final. Lineker replaced Gray after the 84/85 season and was banging in the goals for fun. Even without Lineker in 86/87 they won the league again only using something like 15 players over 42 matches.
The field for the 1986 European Cup was poor, containing an average enough Barcelona team under Terry Venables, a Juventus team in decline, Verona, Porto, IFK Gothenburg and of course Steaua. The draw had actually been made with Everton included according to Wikipedia. They would have taken on Anderlecht in the first round, if they’d won the route to the final would have been: Omonia Nicosia, Bayern Munich (who Everton had beaten well in the CWC semi-final in '85) and Steaua. That wasn’t a hugely difficult route.
English and Scottish teams were well able for Europe’s best in those days. Aberdeen won the Cup Winners Cup in 1983 and Dundee United led Roma 2-0 after the first leg of the 1984 European Cup semi-final but lost 3-0 in Rome. They beat Barcelona home and away on the way to the 1987 UEFA Cup Final.
The difference in those days was that European teams were composed nearly exclusively of natives with just two or three foreign players allowed in the main leagues like Spain and Italy. Both had a two foreigner rule I think. It meant the standard of the best teams wasn’t as high as now but there was a far more even spread of talent so you got good Eastern European teams and Scandinavian teams. Barcelona’s line up in the 1986 final for instance only contained two foreigners, Bernd Schuster and Steve Archibald, while Steaua were all Romanians. As the rules on non-natives were relaxed in continental leagues over the next few years England and Scotland fell behind.
[quote=“Rocko, post: 600076”]
I don’t think Liverpool would have come close to Milan in 1989.
The achievements of Aldridge, Houghton, Beardsley and Barnes were modest at best on the international stage [/quote]
??? Rocko, I don’t know how you can say that about Aldo and Houghton, they achieved pretty remarkable things on the International stage. As for Bearddsley and Barnes, well, they played for England, so they hadn’t a hope of achieving anything.
I’m disgusted that last years HWH Bunclody Junior Hurling team are not on this list.