BREXIT thread

But on the flip side of that, any defined Brexit that is not put to a public vote is undemocratic too, because what was voted for was unicorns

When Brexit is defined, it suddenly becomes very unpopular

Any Tory Brexit is awful, some more awful than others

A Corbyn-negotiated Brexit deal would likely be less damaging to everybody, it would not be ideal but at least it would not be a disaster

And hopefully it would lose in a referendum v Remain

But those would be the options, and neither would be a disaster - the danger zone would be averted

We live in a time of low attention spans

Nuance is seen as weakness, clarity is seen as strength

And sometimes that is true

Fake nuance and disingenuous attempts to blur clarity where clarity is the only reasonable option are a scourge on public debate on so many issues

But this is not one of those

Real nuance is essential on Brexit, “clarity” on the issue is mostly fake, it’s mostly bluster and it’s mostly naked opportunism

That’s how I see what both the Tories and the Lib Dems are doing

I have been supportive of Corbyn previously based on the fact that he has an allotment, however I am now withdrawing that support. If he wanted to bother his arse, he would easily be PM ages ago, had a second referendum, put this ludicrous Brexit idea to sleep and gotten on with actually running the joint.

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They could be still talking about Brexit in twenty years.

200 posts of nothing here - lads getting worked up about what tie Corbyn wears :rofl: – keeping an eye on Brexit is one thing, i’ll never understand Irish lads getting passionately worked up about tan politics , lickspittles like @balbec spitting venom at the screen because his beloved Tories are in tatters … when it comes to Ireland then it’s head in the sand time and they let FFG do as they please…

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Thomas Cook that venerable British institution has gone tits up. Brexit means brexit

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@sid completely humiliated himself here last night. “Corbyn has never said that a good deal is better than staying in the EU”. What does he think started this whole conversation off yesterday? “A vote for repealing Art 50 is a vote for civil war” - would you actually fuck off you loon.

“Corbyn is great at elections because the criteria you have to use is comparing him with Cameron” - Why isnt he fucking PM then? The criteria I’m using is if Corbyn can beat Barmy Boris to PM. If he can’t he’s fucking pathetic and he can fuck off. The British working class are about to get raped by the Etonite and it’s all the fault of these Corbinista losers spending their lives in their fucking bedrooms.

Why does Sid even waste his time on this thread making fun of the Brexiteers if he doesn’t want to repeal Art 50? I’m not debating with him again.

No one booking holidays until Brexit is resolved :rofl:

The lib dem position isn’t one I necessarily agree with, but it’s clear and unambiguous. They also know full well that they will only be in any position of influence as part of a broad coalition. I suspect that there will be a deal, as the dup have got cold feet, and Boris will accept anything at all. He’s toast otherwise.

If you think that’s venom, you don’t know me kid.

After an hour of Tories at War (Channel 4), I felt I had to get out into the fresh air and go for a walk. The foul language; the visceral hatred; the unbearable tensions; the violence being inflicted on ancient institutions and this poor old knackered country by the Tories, as if with chainsaws and zombie knives – it was like watching my first Saw movie.

They say sunshine is the best disinfectant, and outside in the bright autumnal afternoon I felt cleansed, and I put together some thoughts about why this superb fly-on-the-wall documentary works as well as it does.

For a start, the access secured by filmmaker Patrick Forbes was breathtaking, and the lack of restraint among the Tory parliamentarians quite stunning to behold. Discipline and morale has utterly collapsed. From January until a few weeks ago the penultimate dramas of Brexit are played out. For example, we witness the inside of a Eurosceptic European Research Group meeting, not so much foam flecked as more consumed by a sort of grim group paranoia, a body of men and women all determined to believe that “they” – ie their fellow Conservatives running the party and the country – are lying to them, conspiring against them, sneakily betraying Brexit. It was disturbing to watch, and very otherworldly.

Jacob Rees-Mogg, leader of the ERG, responding to yet another Commons calamity for Theresa May, mumbled something about “‘it’ doesn’t always mean what ‘it’ means”, like a pin-striped Bill Clinton talking about oral sex.

Almost all the filming took place indoors and the claustrophobia, literal and metaphorical, was overpowering. The incidental music – lots of Bizet – added a vibrantly satirical touch to the dismal proceedings. Everything is dark, in all senses.

Then there is the swearing. I’ve met a few politicians in my time and noted how they, like journalists, have an inventive capacity for fruity language. But there is something especially entertaining in watching, on camera, these usually tightly controlled, professionally spun, careful individuals just letting fly with the F-word. “Who the f*** do they think they are?” asks Alan Duncan MP of his opponents. Anna Soubry doesn’t wish to speak to her “f***ing chief whip”. My favourite was probably the moment when Nicholas Soames just declared “we are completely buggered”, his bulk subsiding on his desk like the fall of an empire. The rest of the rude words cannot be reprinted on a family website.

The insults were quite lively, too. Remember that these are, or were, people supposed to be in the same political movement. Anna Soubry, who really did seem to be losing it a bit, warned us Boris Johnson is “the great charlatan”, which is unarguable. Alan Duncan, the dapper Foreign Office minister once described as a “bonsai Michael Heseltine”, did a passable and contemptuous impression of Rees-Mogg’s plummy accent, and wrote off Priti Patel as “a complete and utter disgrace” and “the worst international development secretary we have ever had”.

Nicky Morgan even managed to self-parody herself when she abandoned all previous principles and positions, and chucked her lot in with Boris and no deal: “I am intensely pragmatic”. Yes, Nicky, that’s one way of describing monumental self-betrayal.

Andrew Bridgen, a Hobbit-like Eurosceptic who made his money out of potatoes, is apparently known to colleagues as “Spud-U-Hate” . He is perfectly open about plotting with Nigel Farage for some sort of electoral pact over drinks in some bar called Lou Lou’s. Just in case you were wondering where Britain’s economic future is being charted.

And on and on it goes, and will go. We see Farage, filmed many months ago, as he “privately” confides a prediction, one of the few accurate ones: “We are not leaving on 31 October… if Boris wins we ain’t leaving.” Farage was, in fact, by far the shrewdest operator we see in the whole sorry s**tshow: credit where it’s due.

Alan Duncan sums up the documentary, and the state of the Conservatives thus: “The sadness is you are mapping the day-to-day slow death of the most successful political party in democratic history.” Sad, yes, and horrific, but utterly, gut-wrenchingly compelling.*

U OK, hun?

ah lads, the Labour Party conference is descending into total farce :sweat_smile:

:smiley:

Wonderful robust debate at the Labour Party Conference

The Stalinists of the Tories and Liberal Democrats wouldn’t understand that

Not according to the head of Momentum


:sweat_smile:

the make the tories look competent

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@Tim_Riggins and @Tassotti will be on here for the next ten hours posting up tweets by Mail On Sunday writers

They’ll be making sure they “like” each other’s posts for moral support

The anti-Corbyn cult never stops

These lads must have no lives

Lou Lou’s is a great spot.

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The big issues…like Palestine