Celtic v Hearts, 3pm, Sky Sports

Sport
81

Thereā€™s time to change and thereā€™s time to change. After one/ two trainings, let alone a transfer window, in a must win league game against top of the table, it wasnā€™t the time for a complete change. It looks to me like hes bitten off a lot more than he can chew.

Again heā€™s talking about keeping the same style/ formation if so weā€™ll have another Ange in Europe on our hands.

His job is very simple, win games, win trophies, progress in Europe and play decent ball. Sticking to a rigid alien formation in all matches with an already (poor) squad and not concentrating on winning has alarm bells flashing for me.

82

I donā€™t think any changes in formation or player selection were anything to do with losing yesterday.

The two players who lost out were McCowan and Donovan - neither of whom have been playing at all well. Saracchi was our biggest miss but that wasnā€™t a selection decision.

We were pretty abject during the week and possibly played better yesterday. It wasnā€™t brilliant but we created some chances especially early on and we didnā€™t score because Maeda fluffed his lines, not because we changed to a back 3.

The ā€œprogress in Europeā€ throwaway point is the whole challenge surely. And that canā€™t occur without significant changes to the squad and the system. We continuously fail in Europe. That would suggest drastic change is needed, not wait a while and see can we tweak one or two things over time.

We donā€™t have a competent fit right back. We donā€™t have a competent fit striker. We donā€™t have two competent fit wingers. There isnā€™t a formation in the world that papers over those chasms.

83

I didnā€™t like the board thing. But itā€™s not the bigger point. Optics are important, at least externally, and it certainly didnā€™t project confidence.

I donā€™t think Nancy was the cheap option but maybe he was. Either way I think he has decent credentials and Iā€™m supportive of rolling the dice.

84

I get your points & I usually sit on the fence so I can claim Iā€™m right no matter what happens. I was wary of Nancyā€™s experience/credentials (Deilaesque) before flipping to being very positive (heā€™s the next Ange).

One of the things I mentioned on the manager thread that made me nervous was the 3421 in Scotland where teams will be sitting in & playing with 1 upfront. Theyā€™ll get tight & man mark McGregor & leave one of the 3 centre backs on the ball. Does a 3 v 1 at the back leave you short elsewhere on the pitch?

Yesterday Hearts left Trusty on it throughout (how many times had he the ball just inside Celticā€™s half completely unopposed yet unsure whether to keep carrying it right into Heartsā€™ territory or not?). I know itā€™s too early to be definitive about it because he doesnā€™t have the players to fit into the other positions (for example Tounekti & Yang as wing backs & then McCowan brought on in the same role!) but I think itā€™s a fair point too to wonder if he could have been more pragmatic & not implemented that system immediately after 1 training session with ill-suited personnel.

Just keep it rolling for a very busy December full of pivotal games domestically & in Europe & introduce it gradually from January onwards when our proactive board will be providing him with his desired players from 1 January.

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85

I agree he has to be given a year at least unless itā€™s an absolute disaster, but his timing looks unfortunate.
I hope his high energy system works ok on a wet windy night in Hamilton twice a week.
Maeda still is a wide player I think.
Hopefully he can snag a few from the MLS who are tough and donā€™t mind sleet.

86

With Celtic not winning the league is an absolute disaster. Celticā€™s effective advantage over Hearts at the time of Nancy taking over was three points.

Losing the league from that position would be a sackable offence.

At Celtic you win or you get out. To be fair thatā€™s pretty much every serious club these days. But it probably isnā€™t the case at Dundalk or in Norway or MLS or at the third club in Portugal who arenā€™t expected to win the league. You get time there, with not much spotlight on you. This then leads to overpromoted tactix lads who are written up as fellas who can crack the code, but in reality arenā€™t cut out for a serious level of management with pesky stuff like expectations and demands and pressure and serious media scrutiny. Itā€™s like if a proficient bedroom guitarist suddenly was put on stage at Slane.

Everything Iā€™ve heard and seen of Nancy so far smacks of a cooler looking Stephen Kenny.

87

It doesnā€™t matter what he meant to say, what he actually said was bad.

The great Ken Early, who I get all my opinions on football from as I donā€™t actually watch any football, had an interesting theory about Slot, that there was a language barrier, that his English wasnā€™t good enough, or not so much that his English wasnā€™t good enough but that when a person is conversing through a non-native tongue, they have a propensity to effectively become a different person. That we heard a huge amount from Holland about Slot being an extremely charismatic figure who would have people tuning into his press conferences in the expectation of juicy soundbytes. A sort of Dutch messiah. But that that personality hasnā€™t come across at all in England. And that it may be that he doesnā€™t have the ability to transmit that personality in a language other than his native tongue.

He made the point that Mourinho and Klopp and Guardiola were able to successfully transfer the personalities theyā€™d built up in their native tongues to a new language without losing any of it.

Nancy has been working in an English speaking environment, but a very different one where things you say arenā€™t brutally seized on. The seizing of these things affects a managerā€™s ability to do his job properly as it affects perception, and players are deeply influenced by perception.

Stephen Kenny was done after the Slovakia play off at the latest, which was his third game, because of perception because of his interviews. He was probably done after game 1 in truth.

88

Weā€™ve all been there. 6.30am pints in Dublin Airport. On the vodkas by 1pm up the Gallowgate with the Sean McIlvenna RFB and Andy Craig belting out the rebs. No shame in the head dropping for a few minutes at half time before waking up for the second half. That said weā€™d normally be 2.0 up against St Mirren or Livingston not 2.0 down against Hearts and a top of the table clash.

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89

Thereā€™s something about pissed off football supporters with Glasgow accents which hits more than pissed off football supporters with any other accent.

Listen ā€˜ae faaauns
Sack tha booaaarrrrd
Oo wud a waaaah unnn, ahā€™d geh buig Terry Bootcharrr un
Guinness Boook aā€™ Raycurds stoff

90

As the late Tommy said ā€œtheyā€™re there and there always thereā€ and we all love that. Though its likely Tidsdale wasnā€™t necking venoms in the squirrel pre game and probably should be awake to see the match unfolding

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91

Nobody says ā€œshitebagā€ like the Glaswegians

92

Called it

93

There was a poster called Sid Waddell on YBIG who called the impending Kenny disaster right from November 2018 when his appointment was announced. The rest of the forum went into meltdown at what he said.

Reading his posts back itā€™s almost like he had access to a time machine.

94

What a load of shite. Faux outrage. Theyā€™ll either win the league this season or next, and the following etcā€¦

95

was that 1st one given?

96

Sure lookit, itā€™ll go one of two ways & youā€™re very much coming down on one side of it. And I can see how youā€™re thinking that way because of the red flags/optics we saw yesterday. Despite my post match hissy fit (cc Footix thread), Iā€™m trying to be moderate & think thereā€™s a fair chance heā€™s not the next Stephen Kenny or whatever example you could pick whoā€™s been chewed up & spat out by the Glasgow goldfish bowl (from Mowbray 15-20 years ago at Celtic to any number of hun managers since then).

Next points are a collection of different thoughts on him/the situation. Some probably backing up your view & others maybe countering it.

@flattythehurdler made a very rare good point about Oā€™Neillā€™s 7/8 wins increasing the pressure on Nancy. I devoured some match reaction fan podcast/media content on my lunch hour 90-minute run. A bhoy who was at the game said there were folk in his section going nuts after half an hour when it was 0-0 & Celtic were playing fairly well & should have been ahead. Screaming for Oā€™Neill & shouting that this guy was a charlatan etc etc. I always think the huns are your typical group of ignorant, entitled, establishment fuckwits & Celtic fans generally come from a more considered & thoughtful place. Yet @Rocko & @Bisto have also provided examples of Celtic fans going down that path too. Itā€™s a tricky spot for a new manager, & even more so with the fan discontent with the board.

Iā€™ve wondered could he have broadly used Oā€™Neillā€™s game model. A fairly basic 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-1-1 & gradually implemented his own set up. But it was a bit of a rock & a hard placeā€¦win playing Oā€™Neillā€™s way & you could argue why not keep Oā€™Neill anyway. Lose playing Oā€™Neillā€™s way & you could argue why didnā€™t this guy have the belief to play his favoured style? Lose playing his own way & itā€™s back to why not keep Oā€™Neill. Getting back to the 7/8 wins for MON & the Feyenoord win was a surprisingly great performance, never mind the result. I know he won the league games but the last three displays at St Mirren & Hibs & at home to Dundee were all fortunate results in different ways. People can counter that a win is a win but I donā€™t know how long that would have been sustainable.

My OWN RESEARCH tells me once Nancy gets his 3421 going then it really flows & itā€™s great to watch. Naturally, after one training session in it, all those details that make the system work need time. Things like general understanding & players moving in sync, spaces between them, how they combine & type of passes, method of chance creation, when & which players get into the box to support the striker etc etc. All this takes time. The problem is he doesnā€™t have a pre-season to work all of this out & heā€™s gone with this system despite having ill-suited players due to abysmal squad management & player trading. His belief in his ways could ultimately be a strength & Celtic could come out the other side after some growing pains but many are considering it arrogant folly straight away. I also mentioned earlier my feeling that 3 at the back might not work as well against 1 striker set ups as other systems, & thatā€™s what Celtic will face every week. Itā€™s also clear that some of the players are shit &, as mentioned, the execution & choice of pass in promising situations was brutal yesterday. So maybe a simple back to basics style like MONā€™s with a good dose of man management is the best way to get the most out of thick, useless cunts rather than some complex set up.

Iā€™m not yet writing him off as a bumbling fool bluffing about his philosophy, a French Russell Wilson, even though calling players over to his magnetic board looked daft. I think heā€™s carried himself pretty well in his interviews but the media & hun leaning pundits will immediately try to portray him as a laughing stock. It will definitely test his character & the scrutiny will be nothing like managing an MLS side. I think itā€™s very important for him to win the League Cup Final on Sunday to give him some breathing space, & that should quell the doubters even for a short while. All the time he needs to be embedding his principles/system so it doesnā€™t unravel like yesterday if we donā€™t take the lead in a match.

I still make Celtic favourites for the league.

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97

I think this is a very fair post well made.

We are all for change, progress and exciting football, but only a fool would think yesterday was the day to rip it up and start from scratch. He has to utilise the likes of the Yangā€™s until he can replace them and get his players in, he is of no use bombing up and down the wings and supposedly to cover defensively.

As much as Nancy needs to be backed (a couple of transfer windows minimum) he needs to play winning football to even get himself there. Change is over time and not one training session. I hope this penny drops pretty soon

98

Club Brugge have just sacked Nicky Hayen. :thinking:

99

Do you think the formation was the cause of the Hearts goals?

Do you think we created enough chances to win the game?

I was surprised at the amount of change. But I thought it worked well enough at least for most of the first half. We ran out of ideas pretty quickly but Iā€™d argue thatā€™s a function of not having any really good attacking talent. We just donā€™t have players who are good enough and playing Tounetki in a different role wasnā€™t going to make him any better.

I think maybe Yang was a little less effective than recent games and Nygren didnā€™t really have much of an influence. But both those things have been the case more often than not this season.

One could argue that we donā€™t have wingers so it makes sense to stop playing them sooner rather than later. I think the Roma game isnā€™t going to tell us much but will be interesting to see how we do on Sunday. When results werenā€™t going Angeā€™s way we were creating lots of chances (except maybe that Livingston game). I donā€™t think results are everything at this stage but I would like to see an improvement in our ability to create chances.

100

I donā€™t know that the MON simple system can really be expected to continue to deliver results. We were already lacking consistency in his short spell. And time and again it just comes back to a lack of creative talent in the team.

Iā€™d rather find out in 6 months whether Nancyā€™s system works rather than have him limp along scraping results and hoping to edge a league title while buying time.

I do think the reaction to the defeat has been way over the top. And I think that was at least on a par with most of the recent performances. Winning does matter - if nothing else we know this group of players have fragile confidence. Agreed that beating St Mirren would make a world of difference.

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