treaty_exile knows the score.
Yours etc,
GSH.
[quote=“treaty_exile”]i think we’re 2 sides of the 1 coin here.
i’m not talking about individual savings.
fair enough, the pension reserve fund was set up (by McCreevy?) but didn’t see out the decade before we raided it.
fiscal policy certainly did nothing to alleviate the building boom. quite the opposite.
a concerted effort was made to put public money into the construction sector, mainly through tax breaks.
if the same monetary figure had been put into the NRA to build toll-free roads (Cork-Dublin and Limerick-Dublin motorways still not finished), or the Dept. of Education (see GSH’s comment re Donabate prefab school) the Govt. would have been lauded on a par with Lemass and Noel Browne when the next batch of leaving cert history texts are being written.
instead we blew it on section 23s and the like.
whether the money should have been saved or spent is a matter of opinion. what’s clear is that it should not have been spent in the manner it was.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you on the construction point. It basically drove everything up, prices, wages etc and gave us an inflated view of this country’s wealth. Of course it was bound to come to a shuddering halt. Measures should have been taken to curb it but they weren’t because we were having a good time, and always thought we would.
I am not sure though about your spending of the wealth point - are you saying that the money gained from removing tax breaks should have been spent on schools etc? That’s a fair point then as well. But you also have to remember that we amassed a massive National Debt through the 70s and 80s and that had to be paid back as well. People seem to forget that. Yes we had a boom but we had some pretty awful times before that as well where we borrowed to keep our head above water. That had knock on consequences on later years.
But the key point in all of this is how do we get economic growth again? It is simple really - identify the area where we have a competitive advantage, be it a skilled workforce, good quality agricultural and food sector,and dare I say it green policies to go with our green image. This should have been where the focus was and not in bloody houses for people within Ireland.
[quote=“farmerinthecity”]I agree with you on the construction point. It basically drove everything up, prices, wages etc and gave us an inflated view of this country’s wealth. Of course it was bound to come to a shuddering halt. Measures should have been taken to curb it but they weren’t because we were having a good time, and always thought we would.
I am not sure though about your spending of the wealth point - are you saying that the money gained from removing tax breaks should have been spent on schools etc? That’s a fair point then as well. But you also have to remember that we amassed a massive National Debt through the 70s and 80s and that had to be paid back as well. People seem to forget that. Yes we had a boom but we had some pretty awful times before that as well where we borrowed to keep our head above water. That had knock on consequences on later years.
But the key point in all of this is how do we get economic growth again? It is simple really - identify the area where we have a competitive advantage, be it a skilled workforce, good quality agricultural and food sector,and dare I say it green policies to go with our green image. This should have been where the focus was and not in bloody houses for people within Ireland.[/QUOTE]
i like it.
farmer’s had enough of the autopsy, time to move on to the cure.
where’s our competitive advantage?
used to be in a relatively cheap, educated work force in a sympathetic tax climate.
not anymore.
this green energy argument has never really won me over. we didd enough lab and design experiments to know the devil is in the detail. e.g. wind turbines. if we are to become electricity exporters, you won’t be able to puck a sliotar on the west coast without hitting one. basically converting mechanical energy to electrical energy is quite inefficient.
we could capitalise on our technology advantage, with intel, google, dell, etc. all in the country, but that would require a broadband network.
my own industry (pharma) is shifting focus toward development and R&D, the large manufacturing being shipped to cheaper labour zones. we could help ourselves here, but tax breaks and investment in science equipment for schools and joint research initiatives with 3rd level institutions are required. instead we reintroduce college fees.
we could be prioritising courses for growth sectors, but we subsidise all courses equally so that johnny from termonfeckin can do arts with mesopotamian languages, or sheila from ballydehob spends three years struggling through applied social studies and child care.
I suppose my point above re spending of the wealth was more a lament of the lack of any co-ordinated strategy (the motorway metaphor is apt here, disjointed doesn’t do it justice)
we could have spent it in dozens of areas, all would have been more beneficial than half-empty housing estates.
national debt is (was?) in the 20s as a percentage of GDP.
admittedly that figure is horseshit since our GNP is plummeting and our corporation tax rate makes GDP largely irrelevant.
But the Government at least needs to be thinking in the right area – competitiveness isn’t going to be easy to develop but at least that is where they should be focusing all their efforts to achieve in order to turn this around.
This thread has gone drastically off course but there are a few points everyone needs to bear in mind with respect to the competitiveness issue. Because it’s my work I’ve read the STI and the various Ireland 2020 strategic visions cover to cover. It’s an ambitious vision and it’s very existence reflects a number of interesting ideas.
Firstly that the ‘lost competitiveness’ due to high wages line that has been doing the rounds for a good twelve months is a complete red herring invented by IBEC. The whole country is convinced that is why the mncs fled and they believe it because the likes of the sindo flog it every week. Its simply a lie. The average industrial wage in Poland is about 7k. The average in Ireland is estimated to be in the region of 35k. So regaining competitiveness on that front requires a five fold decrease in Irish wages, reducing the dole to 40 euro a week, decresing rent, food, fuel prices by the same degree and so on.
Imagine then that such a feat were achieved, or imagine that you are now the Polish minister of finance. If you look over your shoulder, you may notice a rather large shadow. Hello China. The average industrial wage in China is about 1k. So the Polish now have to peddle the line that they have become ‘uncompetitive’. It’s one big race to the bottom. What we must recognise is that we have willingly entered a system where our education and economic policy is entirely dictated by the requirements of huge corporations. I’m not passing judgement, but I’d suggest you digest that fact and think about what it means.
The innovation craze has plenty of merit. Unfortunately the government still doesn’t even have a definition for ‘innovation’, and Minister Conor Lenihan (Science, Technology, Innovation and Natural Resources) recently suggested his title change to Minister for Entrepreneurship. Apparently he thinks they’re the same thing. While Ireland has made some strides in this regard over the last ten years, the investment so far of 10-15 billion has been barely enough to move us into division 2. Forget about becoming a world leader. The government can’t make that happen.
Why? Those hailing innovaton and science and technology as the answer should bear in mind that India will graduate 12 million high-tech engineers this year. And they’ll work cheaper than you will. As well as that China is building every week brand new industrial parks - parks to them, bigger than our cities - with universities, hospitals and whatever the mncs want right there for them. I was at a talk recently where a harvard professor on knowledge management suggested that choosing a strategy that pits you directly against the two world goliaths may not be the smart move. I don’t know if our government has even thought about this. I would say they haven’t.
This crash has sent everybody reeling. But it is an opportunity for some real big picture thinking about what this country should look like - on every level. As the Chicago school knew all too well, those who have the ideas when the shock comes are those who shape the world. Ideas are what we need. New ones.
[quote=“Watch The Break”]
This crash has sent everybody reeling. But it is an opportunity for some real big picture thinking about what this country should look like - on every level. As the Chicago school knew all too well, those who have the ideas when the shock comes are those who shape the world. Ideas are what we need. New ones.[/QUOTE]
Good post.
Good points there WTB.
Yours etc,
GSH.
it’s not a lie, your post actually proves it to be the case.
perhaps we should rephrase the current buzzword from “lost competitiveness” to “increased competition”, since the poles weren’t on the radar when we were undercutting the UK, France, etc. as a cheap european base.
one other point that’s relevant here: regulation.
the production and engineering directors where i work were recently in china viewing a potential manufacturing site.
purpose built, as big as WTB says, all mod cons in terms of infrastructure and access.
the main process drain for the site was a 12" steel pipe flowing into the local river.
there was also some mention about the chinese equivalent of a CPO to obtain the land in the first place.
these guys are on a very different playing field to what we in europe are used to.
[quote=“Watch The Break”]This thread has gone drastically off course but there are a few points everyone needs to bear in mind with respect to the competitiveness issue. Because it’s my work I’ve read the STI and the various Ireland 2020 strategic visions cover to cover. It’s an ambitious vision and it’s very existence reflects a number of interesting ideas.
Firstly that the ‘lost competitiveness’ due to high wages line that has been doing the rounds for a good twelve months is a complete red herring invented by IBEC. The whole country is convinced that is why the mncs fled and they believe it because the likes of the sindo flog it every week. Its simply a lie. The average industrial wage in Poland is about 7k. The average in Ireland is estimated to be in the region of 35k. So regaining competitiveness on that front requires a five fold decrease in Irish wages, reducing the dole to 40 euro a week, decresing rent, food, fuel prices by the same degree and so on.
Imagine then that such a feat were achieved, or imagine that you are now the Polish minister of finance. If you look over your shoulder, you may notice a rather large shadow. Hello China. The average industrial wage in China is about 1k. So the Polish now have to peddle the line that they have become ‘uncompetitive’. It’s one big race to the bottom. What we must recognise is that we have willingly entered a system where our education and economic policy is entirely dictated by the requirements of huge corporations. I’m not passing judgement, but I’d suggest you digest that fact and think about what it means.
The innovation craze has plenty of merit. Unfortunately the government still doesn’t even have a definition for ‘innovation’, and Minister Conor Lenihan (Science, Technology, Innovation and Natural Resources) recently suggested his title change to Minister for Entrepreneurship. Apparently he thinks they’re the same thing. While Ireland has made some strides in this regard over the last ten years, the investment so far of 10-15 billion has been barely enough to move us into division 2. Forget about becoming a world leader. The government can’t make that happen.
Why? Those hailing innovaton and science and technology as the answer should bear in mind that India will graduate 12 million high-tech engineers this year. And they’ll work cheaper than you will. As well as that China is building every week brand new industrial parks - parks to them, bigger than our cities - with universities, hospitals and whatever the mncs want right there for them. I was at a talk recently where a harvard professor on knowledge management suggested that choosing a strategy that pits you directly against the two world goliaths may not be the smart move. I don’t know if our government has even thought about this. I would say they haven’t.
This crash has sent everybody reeling. But it is an opportunity for some real big picture thinking about what this country should look like - on every level. As the Chicago school knew all too well, those who have the ideas when the shock comes are those who shape the world. Ideas are what we need. New ones.[/QUOTE]
Basically you’re saying we’re f**ked then WTB?
Back on the topic of the killing, went to the shop there to grab a sandwich and I noticed that there was something on the front page about the IRA being urged to do something about the killing, what the f**k is that all about? Anyone feel like buying the paper and summarising the article for me.
Thanks
[quote=“briantinnion”]Back on the topic of the killing, went to the shop there to grab a sandwich and I noticed that there was something on the front page about the IRA being urged to do something about the killing, what the f**k is that all about? Anyone feel like buying the paper and summarising the article for me.
Thanks[/QUOTE]
The Herald I would guess?
[quote=“briantinnion”]Back on the topic of the killing, went to the shop there to grab a sandwich and I noticed that there was something on the front page about the IRA being urged to do something about the killing, what the f**k is that all about? Anyone feel like buying the paper and summarising the article for me.
Thanks[/QUOTE]
the RA used to do what the pigs dont do & keep the scumbag criminals in check
Sorry meant to say The Herald.
If we could get the IRA to sort these things out we wouldn’t need the new legislation that the government is trying to rush through. Plus it wouldn’t cost the state a penny. Seems like a sensible plan.
Will this mean a return of Direct Action Against Drugs?
my finest hour - protesting outside malahide oinkstation after a leading community activist & direct action against drugs stalwart was arrested in darndale & taken to fair fingal
hey diddle diddle
the cops are on the fiddle
& the pushers are over the moon:thumbsup:
Wasn’t that campaign just to wipe out the INLA, NCC?
[quote=“north county corncrake”]my finest hour - protesting outside malahide oinkstation after a leading community activist & direct action against drugs stalwart was arrested in darndale & taken to fair fingal
hey diddle diddle
the cops are on the fiddle
& the pushers are over the moon:thumbsup:[/QUOTE]
All while you toking on a fat one?
[quote=“north county corncrake”]my finest hour - protesting outside malahide oinkstation after a leading community activist & direct action against drugs stalwart was arrested in darndale & taken to fair fingal
hey diddle diddle
the cops are on the fiddle
& the pushers are over the moon:thumbsup:[/QUOTE]
Was that not getting arrested at the Whipping Boy concert?
whipping boy?huh?
it was to clean up our city