Fully supportive of the teachers on this one. Heard the president of INTO on Morning Ireland this morning and he made a strong case - pleasantly surprised as I’d heard he wasn’t the best union leader in the world.
Anyway some of the statistics about our goverment’s investments in primary education particularly are damning:
We used to spend 5% of GDP on primary education, in the high times of the Celtic Tiger we decreased that to 4.6%
The EU average is 6%
We spend more on third level education than primary education despite the fact that primary education is the only sector that affects the entire population (we also spend more on secondary than primary)
We will have the highest class sizes in Europe after the proposed cuts have gone through
The Greens had education as a core tenet of their programme for government and it was not something they were prepared to compromise on at the negotiating table. Well they’ve gone and sold themselves an awful long way short now.
This bullshit about making the teachers pay for primary education is nonsense - the government keep flying this kite that if the teachers took a pay-cut then they could keep class sizes lower (well relatively lower, still second highest in EU). Why the fuck should teachers take a pay cut to fund government spending in the education sector? The beneficiaries of any progress would be the children and their parents but you could imagine the uproar if the government suggested that any parent with a child in primary school should take a pay cut to pay for that child’s education.
[quote=“therock67”]You heading along to the marches today Larry?
Fully supportive of the teachers on this one. Heard the president of INTO on Morning Ireland this morning and he made a strong case - pleasantly surprised as I’d heard he wasn’t the best union leader in the world.
Anyway some of the statistics about our goverment’s investments in primary education particularly are damning:
We used to spend 5% of GDP on primary education, in the high times of the Celtic Tiger we decreased that to 4.6%
The EU average is 6%
We spend more on third level education than primary education despite the fact that primary education is the only sector that affects the entire population (we also spend more on secondary than primary)
We will have the highest class sizes in Europe after the proposed cuts have gone through
The Greens had education as a core tenet of their programme for government and it was not something they were prepared to compromise on at the negotiating table. Well they’ve gone and sold themselves an awful long way short now.
This bullshit about making the teachers pay for primary education is nonsense - the government keep flying this kite that if the teachers took a pay-cut then they could keep class sizes lower (well relatively lower, still second highest in EU). Why the fuck should teachers take a pay cut to fund government spending in the education sector? The beneficiaries of any progress would be the children and their parents but you could imagine the uproar if the government suggested that any parent with a child in primary school should take a pay cut to pay for that child’s education.[/quote]
where & when are these on - i might head down with a Puke & his cronies out placard
What do people on here make of the stance of the Greens on this to back the government?
There was some councillor calling it a sell-out and also calling for a meeting of the parliamentary party to decide whether to stay in Government.
What are the chances of this happening? I would imagine that once it did happen there would be a good chance that they would leave the Government then. Their majority would have taken a bit of a hammering then as well what with independents withdrawing support as well.
While I back the teachers on this, part of me enjoys seeing how neutered those fucking greens have become since they went into power. What is it they say, absolute power corrupts absolute? They’re no better that those they lie in bed with.
The government quote that the UK have bigger primary school classes than us. The only thing is that Primary school teachers have teachers aids that help out in the classroom. Never hear Batt and the boys tell us that.
If the Greens go then the governement is doomed - they’re reliant on Lowry and Healey-Rae to support them and that’s ridiculously unstable.
Don’t think they’ll go though. Cllr Bronwyn Maher was calling for a debate on the issue at the next convention and was pushing for a withdrawal but I doubt it would be successful. If Patricia McKenna was still there you might have a chance but there’s no real support within the party for anything other than support for the status quo IMO.
I think they’ve done very badly out of the whole thing. This budget was a chance for them to try and push through a few radical ideas because when better to try them than when the old systems have let you down. Instead they just subscribed to the notion that it’s difficult times so we have to row back on a few of our ideals. Well what’s the fucking point in having them then in the first place.
They went into government as a party with principles - not sure how many they have left. To be fair they are trying to influence decisions and they do believe that they’re making a positive impact but FF must be delighted that they shipped Sargent off to the department of food where his policies are irrelevant. Gormley has shown himself to be toothless while Ryan has reinforced the notion that he’s the most pragmatic (i.e. mainstream, compromising/compromised) of them all.
Of the junior members - White is a loonball, Cuffe is actually having a decent term I think, helped by the spotlight being elsewhere. Disappointed with how meekly Gogarty has come around to supporting the cuts in education - he used to be the one that had to be reined in the whole time because he was a free thinker, seems like he’s happy with his lot now too.
They went into government as a party with principles - not sure how many they have left. To be fair they are trying to influence decisions and they do believe that they’re making a positive impact but FF must be delighted that they shipped Sargent off to the department of food where his policies are irrelevant. Gormley has shown himself to be toothless while Ryan has reinforced the notion that he’s the most pragmatic (i.e. mainstream, compromising/compromised) of them all.
Of the junior members - White is a loonball, Cuffe is actually having a decent term I think, helped by the spotlight being elsewhere. Disappointed with how meekly Gogarty has come around to supporting the cuts in education - he used to be the one that had to be reined in the whole time because he was a free thinker, seems like he’s happy with his lot now too.[/quote]
Sargent, in fairness is probably the most competant of them all. Gormley has nothing to offer and is finding out the hard way that its so much easier to be standing outsidwe the tent pissing in.
Ryan - Ryan is nothing only hot air. There is no substance to him at all. I have seen Vincent Browne reduce him to a mumbling wreck inside of 30 seconds. I don’t think he has shown himself to be pragmatic at all, I think he has shown that a strong hand guiding him is what he needs, wants and desires.
White - allegedy will run for the Presidency next time. No chance.
Cuffe - have no knowledge of Cuffe.
Gogarty - Was seen as leadership material but has now lost a lot of support from the “green” greens.
[quote=“farmerinthecity”]What do people on here make of the stance of the Greens on this to back the government?
There was some councillor calling it a sell-out and also calling for a meeting of the parliamentary party to decide whether to stay in Government.
What are the chances of this happening? I would imagine that once it did happen there would be a good chance that they would leave the Government then. Their majority would have taken a bit of a hammering then as well what with independents withdrawing support as well.[/quote]
The Greens had no experiance of Government coming in and are being given the run around by FF. I think its great that the whole education cuts thing has somehow focussed on the greeens rather than the ones who made the decision - FF. A masterful piece of potitiking.
The Greens also broke a good few of their own rules by going into Government in the 1st place. They had to rewrite their own green party constitution in order to form a Government with FF. This should have signposted to people that these people will soon drop their “principles” fairly lively when they feel like it. A pack of tosspots that have no place in Irish politics. Who votes for these people? The well off and fucking idiots from Carlow.
[quote=“tipptops*”]Sargent, in fairness is probably the most competant of them all. Gormley has nothing to offer and is finding out the hard way that its so much easier to be standing outsidwe the tent pissing in.
Ryan - Ryan is nothing only hot air. There is no substance to him at all. I have seen Vincent Browne reduce him to a mumbling wreck inside of 30 seconds. I don’t think he has shown himself to be pragmatic at all, I think he has shown that a strong hand guiding him is what he needs, wants and desires.
White - allegedy will run for the Presidency next time. No chance.
Cuffe - have no knowledge of Cuffe.
Gogarty - Was seen as leadership material but has now lost a lot of support from the “green” greens.
Bring back McKenna![/quote]
Agreed on Sargent - capable and principled. A bit too principled for some of the careerists who wanted a ministry but he’s a decent skin.
Gormley has been very disappointing - he was always hungry for the cameras, always at the top of marches when the cameras were there despite having nothing to do with the organisation of them. I know of a few events that were organised by other TDs with other briefs where Gormley just swanned in at the last minute and took the press questionsj and the associated publicity. And this was before he was leader. For all that messing I always thought there was a committed bright politican underneath it all, no longer hold that view.
Calling Ryan pragmatic was supposed to be a slight on his character. He’s always been career-focussed and happy to get into government no matter what the cost and that’s all that shines through anymore. He had the odd idea in opposition but in government he’s just become a mouthpiece for FF policy.
White is pure nuts. She’s way out of touch.
Cuffe has had a good couple of years IMO. He’s voiced some views conflicting with FF policy and while his policy statements have been muted I think he’s holding onto more of his principles than others - he doesn’t have the Merc yet of course.
Don’t think Gogarty could ever have been leader. He was never enough of an environmentalist and doesn’t have any real allies among the other TDs. A renegade but now a compliant one.
There are no more than 60/70 out there and its pissing down on top of them. There looks like a lot of kids in the crowd too. I’d estimate no more than 30/40 teachers.
By the way I made a gross error earlier…There is a separate protest for the Connolly Barracks on at the moment and that is what I reported earlier so perhaps there will be more teachers later.
just back from the dil actually. went in this afernoon as wanted to cycle in and that wouldn’t be possible for me when main protest takes place (6.30). ended up getting drenched and not a protest in sight. entirely my fault however.
primary education has been ridiculously underfunded for years. school i am most familiar with has been waiting for a building for over five years now and are without a proper hall or any pe facilities. throughout this time the school has had to rent prefabs at great cost to both the school (department don’t cover full fuding) and the tax payer. now we will be left with the ridiculous situation whereby schools will have empty prefabs because the teachers aren’t their so classes will have to be joined up. i hear fg have called for teachers to take another pay freeze (teachers didn’t receive due amount after last round of benchmarking) in order to fund cost of employing teachers. lack of logical thinking in the whole area from ff and fg is frightening. greens have been found badly wanted in this key area also imo. the measure to eliminate substitute cover for teachers will lead to more teachers being absent as they require sick note on first day of absence. what annoys me most is when i hear hannafin and others talking about who the government have looked after the vunerable in society. misinformed or lies when you consider the following:
-the cutting of english language teachers will increase the isolation of international children in irish society (some schools have 99% international children due to waiting list policies of schools)
-they have slashed traveller education funding
-chosen to eliminate the free book scheme
Primary sector teachers are asked to undertake all this when government continues to look after the super rich, developers and all else treasured by ff.
It’s a disgraceful move. They’re funding loans for people the banks won’t fund to buy new houses or build houses but won’t fund the education system. The laon scheme only applies to new houses so it would seem to be to help the developers rather than the general population. Why wouldn’t second hand houses be included if it was to help the buyer?
It’s not as if Fianna Fail have a good track record on education though. They have a sign up in their Port Laoise consituency office saying they’re delivering five new schools to the town. The sign has been visible since before the last general election but the schools can’t be found quite so easily. The one that has been built recently was in the pipeline for over 20 years. The Gaelscoil gets moved around the town every few years as well.
No substitute cover will mean much less extra-curricular activites. Field trips, sport, trips to plays are all going to take a hit. It’ll be back to 30-35 kids stuffed up in a classroom all day everyday with no break in sight. The teachers will be overworked and lose motivation. The same will happen to the kids. Discipline will go out the window and nobody will learn anything.
[quote=“tipptops*”]
The Greens also broke a good few of their own rules by going into Government in the 1st place. They had to rewrite their own green party constitution in order to form a Government with FF. This should have signposted to people that these people will soon drop their “principles” fairly lively when they feel like it. A pack of tosspots that have no place in Irish politics. Who votes for these people? The well off and fucking idiots from Carlow.[/quote]
ended up going in for the main protest. organisers said 20,000 were at it. brian hayes got cheered which disappointed me. labour and sinn fein appear to be the only parties who have been commendable on this.