And was there intention to cause serious injury?
What was the intention if it was not to cause serious injury? Why did they charge at them?
I can see that difference. As in you may not intend to kill somone when you fight them but you do them so much damage directly that you end up killing them. But is it murder when you charge at a person and he runs across a road and gets killed by a car? I would equate that to what happened at Heysel
Can I just say that I am not condoning the Liverpool fans actions that night but I can’t agree with the labelling of them as murderers based on what happened
That’s the point I initially made. They charged at the Juve fans intent on attacking them. As a result they’re responsible for the deaths. farmer, are you defending the actions of the Liverpool hooligans that night or just arguing the toss as to whether it was murder or not?
See my previous post Bandage
If they had nowhere else to run because there were hundreds/thousands of you charging and there was only a motorway behind them and they were forced to run onto that motorway then murder is definitely a possibility.
Your original post implies that the guys just ran into the wall and died, just as someone might run out in front of a car, in other words they might just as easily have run somewhere else.
The victims at Heysel had nowhere else to go - they were forced into the wall and the fact that 39 of them all made the same fatal move it proves that they had no other option.
It says so much about your misplaced blind loyalty that you’re defending Liverpool fans’ actions that night.
What a strong statement. My God you aren’t condoning their actions that night. Good God man they killed 39 people - condoning them was never really an option.
More importantly you’re not condemning them either.
If you make a conscious decision to attack somebody and then follow through with that action and that person dies as a result of the action you have taken then I consider that to be murder. That’s just my opinion.
I’m not defending their actions but I take issue with the labelling of them as murderers. Most other Liverpool fans would rather sweep Heysel uinder the carpet but I am addressing it
Going back to the motorway analogy - I am not a legal expert but I wouldn’t constitute that as murder. Also its hardly comparable to equate a busy motorway and certain death with a wall which should be able to stand up to the pressure
Again - I am not defending charging the fans, I just dont believe that you can call it murder due to lack of intention to kill
I will get back to this tomorrow evening but I’m calling it a night now
I think you’re right. The wall should have been to stand up to the pressure. The behaviour of Liverpool fans was just incidental. And at Hillsborough it was the same wasn’t it? The police were perfectly fine in channelling everyone through the same gate in such a rush - the stadium should be able to stand up to that pressure too shouldn’t it?
2 other points:
- you’ve said you aren’t defending the fans
- you also said you aren’t condoning them
- why are you going out of your way to avoid condemning them?
- you don’t think Liverpool fans intended to kill Juventus fans
- you don’t think Liverpool fans intended to seriously injure Juventus fans
- what do you think they were doing? Awfully odd behaviour if they weren’t trying to cause serious injury.
The violence continues…
Arsenal and Manchester United are both expected to be fined by Uefa tomorrow for “improper conduct of their supporters” during the Champions League semi-final second leg at the Emirates in May. Arsenal will be punished after a supporter struck Nemanja Vidic with a plastic bottle while Manchester United are also to be sanctioned after one of their fans threw a smoke bomb on to the pitch during the Premier League champions’ 3–1 victory.
Uefa’s disciplinary body met today to discuss the matter and it appears likely that Arsenal and United will both face a small fine, probably in the region of 5,000. That amount is determined not only by the severity of the incident but also the conduct of the clubs’ supporters in Europe over the past five years. With Arsenal and United fans having caused few problems during that period, it appears Uefa will take a lenient view.
The Vidic incident occurred as the Manchester United players celebrated the first of Cristiano Ronaldo’s two goals. The Serb, though unhurt, was knocked to the ground and the referee, Roberto Rosetti, witnessed the incident and recommended in his match report that Uefa’s control and disciplinary body investigates further.