Very interesting. Why would the anti parnellers have been anti gaa and Irish language? I would have thought the opposite the more conservative crowd would have been more into that stuff.
The GAA backed parnell and it nearly kilt them. Limerick city was a wash with gaa clubs up to then but they nearly all disappeared over night.
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Funny how sport was along religious and political lines in Ireland. I suppose it was along racial lines in other countries like South Africa.
He was talking about 40 years earlier. This goes way back.
Parnell went seeking the support of the IRB again after his alliance with Gladstone collapsed when the divorce scandal broke. The IRB had huge huge influence on the GAA at that time and under that influence the GAA rallied to support Parnell. The Catholic church on the othe hand gladly took the chance to cut ties with Parnell.
He was a fascinating character.
The lad that wrote it didnāt mention anything about this.
It was interesting though and worth the listen.
40 years earlier than what?
He lost to the church.
I have my own thesis on that period ( that Iāve never really studied)
But the church had very little influence pre famine until OāConnell came along. What OāConnell wanted for Ireland was essentially Victorian England. He was fascinated by the middle class Victorian tans and their values and wanted to transplant them to Ireland. - namely prudence, cleanliness and virtue. The Victorians were notorious for using shame to breakdown the poor and make them conform to more civilised waysā¦ This should all be ringing a bell in regards Ireland - thatās what the catholic church became. The church became the vanguard of Oconnellism. The leaders of the temperance movement became penny collectors for big Danās war chest.
So what has this to do with rubby in Limerick?
The church were not alone in the vanguard - the shopocracy ( big merchants and big farmers) were also instrumental in converting the masses away from their pig ignorant Irish ways and into more enlightened Victorian valuesā¦
Rubby is a continuation of this in Limerick. If you look at all the quarters of Limerick they had marching bands which stemmed from the temperance movement, they had rowing clubs and rubby clubsā¦ Obviously soccer and gaa existed too but the former sports were played by and introduced bythe gentry and are expressions of aspiration. While they are working class clubs the club presidents and board etc are all small merchants, just outside the shopocracy, aspiring to become part of the middle class eliteā¦ Itās class conflict. A continuation of Oāconnellism in the poorer parts of Limerick, lead by merchants, church and through gentry (civilising) means.
When you hear the old trope about catholic guiltā¦ itās a fallacy. The Spanish, Italians and others donāt have itā¦ What we have in Ireland is Victorian guilt . The tool of using shame to conformā¦ Itās a legacy of OāConnellism that was lead by the church and middle classes and to a lesser degree rubby men
cc @Esso_Oil
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Very interesting points. The O Connell period I have never really looked at, the Parnell and Ireland 1870-1923 period on the other hand I always found fascinating when doing History in school and would continue to read a bit on.
By God!
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Where do the land-league priests fit in?
Iām a city boy. I leave the bog to you lads 
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From what I can gather watching tv shows set in the past in Spain in any case, there was plenty of Catholic guilt around too, when it came to sex and nudity etc, no different to Ireland. Maybe with a bigger population there was only so much of it went around, and I would say the left wingers in Spain most likely rejected the church in any case.
Would it be a case in Ireland, since 1922, the church heavily influencing politics and the constitution. Not sure how different that would have been in e.g. Italy or Spain. France, being āCatholicā seems to have been as liberal as other places like the UK or Germany.
Irish guilt is / was very different to modesty.
It was the kind of thing that stripped a people of natural confidence. that created the mother and baby and laundries. That locked other wise sane people away into mental wards. That allowed bishops rule with an iron fist.
The ordinary people of Ireland were constantly stripped of their dignity. Shamed. Read from the altar. and always judged.
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Yes
Wha ???
If you added fuck rubby or fuck Tipp Iām all in!!
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This fella talks a little bit about the near collapse of the GAA in Limerick city for a period as you have pointed out, not sure what detail the book goes into.
He seems to attribute a lot of rugbyās success to Garryowen organising games on Sundays which meant the Catholic working class could play.
https://twitter.com/SportingLK/status/1838283372776558609?t=3kJl8one0mEPmOJqY1UyhQ&s=19
Garryowen came up with Sunday playing?
Most sport switched to Sunday because people generally worked Saturdaysā¦it was part and parcel of the rise of organized sport.
Garryowen were the only senior club in Limerick so who were they playing? All the junior clubs supplied them with players but they would have been playing other senior teams around the country rather than local games for the poor.
Youāre gonna have to clearer here bud
Says the lad with the thesis there was no catholic guilt in italian and spanish cultures. And him a fine watcher of the sopranos as well. Catholic guilt running through the whole thing. Entire storylines about it
According to him Garryowen organised competitions for junior clubs that were played on Sundays.
Youāre clearly knowledgeable on the topic, get onto Tom Clancy and organise a podcast discussion with your man.