Ha! Itâs been amazing how the Greens have dumped their principles in power. Way beyond the Realpolitik compromises needed for coalition they have become almost FF-like in their un-principled clinging to power. Gormlessâ explanation of the meeting with Cowen re the shuffle bears all the snaketongued signs of a typical Green position - vague and designed to be easily disavowed later. He told Cowan that he didnât think itâd be a good idea but he waited till the muppet had already hung himself to declare that the greens had said they wouldnât allow it.
[indent][/indent]John Gormless advises Brainless Cowen about the Cabinet Reshuffle
Indeed. There are corrupt politicians all around the Dail for sure, there may even be Bank Robbers soon, but FF is systematically corrupt since it failed to deal properly with Haughey in the 70s and allowed him not only to remain in the party but to run it. The Tent, the cosy arrangements with Developers and Bankers, the âcashâ arrangements, the blank cheques. It is a rotten party that needs to be razed to the ground and rebuilt.
The dependence on the likes of Healy-Rae, Lowry, Gregory, et al, of all the recent FF misGovernments has seriously compounded the issue. Yes a FG/Lab coalition will need to compromise, but it wonât be hostage to a local issue in the back-end of nowhere.
Assuming they have the balls for it Shadow FG/Lab should be able to negotiate a strong programme for Government that will have a corrective effect on this country and then ram it through for five years.
The Greens needed an issue to break their link with FF before the election and Cowen gave it to them on a plate. They can now return to the high moral ground which is their natural habitat. Iâve really been surprised at how unprincipaled theyâve been in government, I donât agree with alot of their stuff but I thought theyâd be honest at least. Theyâve been real snakes, waiting to see which way the wind is blowing before nailing their colours to any mast. Tweeting to fly kites as soon as they leave a cabinet meeting, itâs all so cowardly. In a way I feel sorry for them, if they hadnât got into bed with FF Iâd say theyâd be looking at 15-20 seats, now theyâre looking at 1 or none. Itâs a shame because Ryan and Sargent are at least well meaning and actually want to serve the public, Gormley is a snake though.
I really want Cowen to cling onto power until the election so that he can compound this fiasco. Iâd be gutted if he was removed now, a load of people are only waiting to go back and vote for their darlings Fianna Fail if theyâre given a spoonful of sugar in the form of a new leader. You couldnât stop the village idiot element in this country voting for them.
Agree with a lot of that- I donât think the Greens were âglicâ enough for FF though so thatâs why they were up to all the Tweeting and shite. They were always looking over the shoulder and afraid for themselves- I suppose they ultimately realised that they had done a deal with the devil
Ryan is in my constituency and got a vote off me last time. He seems like a decent sort but unfortunately for him heâll get no vote from me this time
They could have served a purpose in there but as you say they hadnât the cuteness to mark Fianna Fail tightly. They effected no change on ethics or cronyism in there at all, fat pensions, jobs for the boys, lacing state boards with FF people all happened under their noses and they never cried stop. If they stood for nothing else it should have been standards in public office. They failed terribly on that.
As has happened to every party that got into bed with FF.
Labour lost their principles also, with Dick Spring pleading Dail privilege to avoid testifying at the Beef Tribunal once he was in government, conveniently forgetting his pre-Government position.
The PDs were worn down by it also with the FF side of their split personality negating any influence from the other half and ultimately truning them back into FF-Lite.
What might be intertesting would be to see how FF worked as a junior partner in a coalition, where they werenât calling the shots and had to dance to anotherâs drum to keep their feet under the cabinet table.
There is talk now of a split FF and new party being formed with the new name of âNew FFâ. Could they not think of other names?
To tell you the truth I really think that FF and FG really need to be taken out of Irish Politics and new parties formed instead for a more modern Ireland and not one based on Civil war politics. I dont think it will happen though so you will always get the gobshites saying I wont vote for FG because they are blueshirts or they voted this way in 1923. What is needed is a clean out of the old in the Dail and new parties formed with different ideaâs for a new country with hopefully and better and more educated members that have the morals and the balls to make decisions and to stand up for what they believe in instead of the spineless gobshites that we have in there at the moment.
I despise the Greens as they are now but I gave one of them a second preference in the last election. I think Sargent was a massive loss to the party and they wouldâve faired infinitely better had he been around. Even his principled stand in refusing to enter Government with FF after promising he wouldnât showed he was at least a man of his word.
Interesting, and largely true. As CJ had already thoroughly corrupted FF and politics in general by the time I had the vote, I have never considered voting FF. Not for Civil War reasons but because of the Haughy Legacy. Iâd consider a lower transfer to a FFâer that I respected as an individual but no more than that.
I think FG suffer more from the Civil War thing than FF do. It would probably be a good idea to reinvent the party as a Christian Democratic party with a suitable name, to reflect their alignment in Europe.
Indeed. Iâd respect anyones position if it was principled.
The thing with Sargent was the first indication of the how easily the Greens could be corrupted. I dont see anything honourable in his refusal to lead the party following him presiding over negotiations with FF on a programme for government. For me its akin to a general saying he wont lead his army into battle then escorting them to the battle field, setting out their positions, giving them their orderas and then announcing âIâm off home for my tea, let me know how ye get onâ.
I think the whole civil war politics thing is a complete misnomer to be honest taz. The independence movement was guided by no distinct political philosophy beyond nationalism, so the notion that the civil war created two distinct political choices which in turn shaped the development of the state is largely unfounded. FF and FG are two centrist parties, endlessly battling over the same middle ground. The civil war politics analysis is useful for people trying to figure out why the Irish electorate have largely been flipping a coin for the last eighty years, but beyond that it has had no impact on the political ideologies which have shaped the state.
To be fair, the familiarity with politicians any one of us would have is limited to a few local ploliticians and those better known at a national level. Most of us know nothing about most of the TDs in the Dail.
FF is influenced by the developers and banks but there are few votes there, only cash & soft 110% non-recourse loans.
Labour is influenced by the unions.
FF made a big grab for the PS vote with benchmarking and probably got it in 02 and 07. That will desert FF and where that bloc vote goes will decide things. that is why they face such problems for Dublin in particular.
Predicting it today ------
Looking at each of the 41 constituencies, FG 65 (a seat in each and double up in half+), Lab 40 (a seat in 30 and double-up in 10), FF 25, SF 15 and 20 more across socialists, greens and a raft on indos.
FF will have 2 or 3 seats in Dublin and none in Kerry and Tipp. They will be in big trouble in every 3 seater where you should need 25% of the vote after transfers for a seat. They wont get the transfers.
Richard Bruton
Ruairi Quinn
Dr James O Reilly (only for the stand going out on his own and getting the cervical vaccination for the girls in the secondary schools in his area when Harney couldnât find 10 million to introduce a country wide vaccination, which was then found after OâReillyâs move)
Noonan (at the moment he is doing well as finance spokesperson. I know he was a crap leader and minister for health.)
WTB, you may think that but unfortunately you have people in this country who vote based on the way their father, grandfathers, great grandfathers and great great grandfathers voted and most of them based their first votes on the civil war and some even still refer to FG as the blueshirts, maybe not too much in Dublin but it certainly alive and well in other parts of the country. I agree with Shadow that the civil war thing affects FG more than FF. You also have people basing their votes on well FG tried to put a shilling on the Pension in 1923 and VAT on Childrens shoes in the 80âs and of course the anglo Irish agreement.
I think it has considering that FF have been in power for most the states exsistance which has meant that FF think they have the devine right to run the country for themselves and not for the people.
What I would really like to see is the number of seats in the Dail being cut in half and hopefully only the best candidates getting in there and we might see the end of the likes of Healy Rae getting into the Dail.
