General Election 2020 Part 2

[anon61878697]

Take it as a given. Fire on your bank details there.

[Tim_Riggins]

@Dziekanowski

…I didn’t say anything about Berlin Airport or Crossrail. I never even mentioned the Children’s Hospital. I just pointed out that you saying something is “disgrace” and then immediately telling people to “grow up” makes you look very stupid.

But I did, I compared it internationally and said we need to grow up and realise we aren’t the only ones.

Mismanagement of large scale projects happens all the time globally, usually because its State and Council led. It is a disgrace.

However, I am in favour of infrastructure spending overall. This Children’s Hospital will be great for Ireland in the longer term.

You are losing it a bit again I think.

[Tim_Riggins]

@mikehunt

Sigh, incompetence at planning level led to suppliers fleecing the state when the design changed half way through. I’m not saying it was a deliberate overspend but large state contracts are very attractive for obvious reasons.

That’s from a couple of years ago.

BAM has significant share holders from retirement funds and many in the Netherlands, paying ordinary pensioners wages and salaries.

I wish people would be more honest on what Funds often are.

[mikehunt]

[Fagan_ODowd]

@Dziekanowski

Funnily enough I was rabbit holing through Wikipedia last night and saw that Sean Dublin Bay Loftus had a short lived tenure as an independent TD around that time. But it was from June 1981 to February 1982.

Sean Dublin Bay Rockall Loftus, TD for Dublin North East

[Dziekanowski]

Ms. Carroll MacNeill’s reference to the “illegality” of the IRA last night sort of missed the point, I felt, as you could easily just point to the ANC being illegal during the apartheid days.

The point is the dubious morals of what happened in the Troubles - and that applies to the 1916-1923 period as well.

I know all this talk about the IRA actually pushes people towards Sinn Fein, I’ve actually been saying this sort of stuff for years, but there are questions here that needs to be answered given Cullinane’s little speech the other night, and especially given that SF could soon be in government.

Is it an overarching requirement (if not in written rule, then in clear unspoken terms) of Sinn Fein membership to believe that the Provisional IRA campaign of 1969-1997 was, on the whole, at least broadly justified?

Where, for Sinn Fein as a party, do the lines get drawn between Provisional IRA actions between 1969 and 1997 that should be justified, could be justified, cannot be justfied and ones that should be outright condemned? Where do the lines get drawn on post July 19th,1997 actions, or at least post April 10th, 1998 actions?

If it’s not a requirement of Sinn Fein membership to believe that the IRA campaign of 1969 to 1997 was at least broadly justified, was it ever a requirement? And if it was ever a requirement, when did it stop being a requirement to believe such?

Can you be a member of Sinn Fein now and believe that the Provisional IRA campaign of 1969-1997 was not at all justified?

Can you believe that, say, the SDLP’s approach in the years 1969-1997 was the correct one - not the IRA’s - and be a member of Sinn Fein now?

If so, how long exactly has that been the case? Was it always the case? Or is it, still, in 2020, a disbarring belief?

If, say, you held similar views on violence in the North since 1969 to those of Neale Richmond or John Bruton but on all other issues had politics more similar to that of Ruth Coppinger or Richard Boyd Barrett, could you be a member of Sinn Fein?

[anon61878697]

Ok guys - fuck off out of it now ----- we’ve all seen this story a 100 times already.

[Fagan_ODowd]

@Dziekanowski

Ms. Carroll MacNeill’s reference to the “illegality” of the IRA last night sort of missed the point, I felt, as you could easily just point to the ANC being illegal during the apartheid days.

The point is the dubious morals of what happened in the Troubles - and that applies to the 1916-1923 period as well.

I know all this talk about the IRA actually pushes people towards Sinn Fein, I’ve actually been saying this sort of stuff for years, but there are questions here that needs to be answered given Cullinane’s little speech the other night, and especially given that SF could soon be in government.

Is it an overarching requirement (if not in written rule, then in clear unspoken terms) of Sinn Fein membership to believe that the Provisional IRA campaign of 1969-1997 was, on the whole, at least broadly justified?

Where, for Sinn Fein as a party, does the line get drawn between Provisional IRA actions between 1969 and 1997 that should be justified, could be justified, cannot be justfied and ones that should be outright condemned?

If it’s not a requirement of Sinn Fein membership to believe that the IRA campaign of 1969 to 1997 was at least broadly justified, was it ever a requirement? And if it was ever a requirement, when did it stop being a requirement to believe such?

Can you be a member of Sinn Fein now and believe that the Provisional IRA campaign of 1969-1997 was not at all justified?

Can you believe that, say, the SDLP’s approach in the years 1969-1997 was the correct one - not the IRA’s - and be a member of Sinn Fein now?

If so, how long exactly has that been the case? Was it always the case? Or is it, still, in 2020, a disbarring belief?

If, say, you held similar views on violence in the North since 1969 to those of Neale Richmond or John Bruton but on all other issues had politics more similar to that of Ruth Coppinger or Richard Boyd Barrett, could you be a member of Sinn Fein?

Sure for fuck sake half of them were British informers.

[anon61878697]

@Dziekanowski

Is it an overarching requirement (if not in written rule, then in clear unspoken terms) of Sinn Fein membership to believe that the Provisional IRA campaign of 1969-1997 was, on the whole, at least broadly justified?

No. But they dont hide from their history either. The onus of their future looking objectives are social justice and true republicanism in it;s older, truer, meaning.

[anon61878697]

@Dziekanowski

Where, for Sinn Fein as a party, do the lines get drawn between Provisional IRA actions between 1969 and 1997 that should be justified, could be justified, cannot be justfied and ones that should be outright condemned? Where do the lines get drawn on post July 19th,1997 actions, or at least post April 10th, 1998 actions?

I think nearly everyone in the party would say the worst of those deeds were wrong - but you’d also be in danger of selecting parts of history in isolation if we were to go down that road and we know that nothing has a singular cause.

[balbec]

@Dziekanowski

Funnily enough I was rabbit holing through Wikipedia last night and saw that Sean Dublin Bay Loftus had a short lived tenure as an independent TD around that time. But it was from June 1981 to February 1982.

He did. Was he not elected in two constituencies? He ran in a few anyway.

[Dziekanowski]

@anon61878697

No. But they dont hide from their history either. The onus of their future looking objectives are social justice and true republicanism in it;s older, truer, meaning.

Yeah, but could one condemn the IRA between 1969 and 1997 in the strongest possible terms, have a strong belief in progressive left politics, and tenably be a member of Sinn Fein?

Is bestowing at least some degree of historical righteousness on the IRA campaign of 1969 to 1997 an essential requirement of a Sinn Fein member in 2020?

[Fulvio_From_Aughnacloy]

Slab Murphy had a dream that was a United Ireland. It needs to be realised before he goes.

[anon61878697]

@Dziekanowski

Can you be a member of Sinn Fein now and believe that the Provisional IRA campaign of 1969-1997 was not at all justified?

Interesting.

I’d say you can, yes. I’ve found anyone i’ve dealt with in Limerick or Cork to be very forward thinking and fair/objective … most new members are people who were barley alive back then so it means very little to them and most of the members recognize that the movement is in a completely new/different space … except the shadowy guys in the background that is.

Be interesting to see it tested like you’re laying out tho.

[Dziekanowski]

@anon61878697

I think nearly everyone in the party would say the worst of those deeds were wrong - but you’d also be in danger of selecting parts of history in isolation if we were to go down that road and we know that nothing has a singular cause.

I think few things have a singular cause. History can be looked at in all sorts of ways. The IRA campaign was made up of many singular and interconnected events. You can argue that fighting was necessary. You can argue that the broad thrust of the campaign was justified. But within that there were many acts that I think cannot be justified in any way.

The problem with Sinn Fein people continually saying “up the RA” etc. is that the IRA did commit many unjustifiable acts, you’re only as good as your worst behaviour, and that sort of rhetoric is tantamount to justification. Like, if a unionist politician was shouting about being up to his neck in Fenian blood or shouting about Lenny Murphy being a hero, would that make you uncomfortable? It would, I bet. Donald Finlay lost his job at Rangers for something like that.

Yet there is a massive blind spot in Sinn Fein’s support as regards this sort of thing.

[anon61878697]

That’s fair enough…

[TheUlteriorMotive]

You can be a member. Could you be a senior party figure.

https://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/27259

Eoin O’Broin wrote
Contrary to the claims of some, 2018 will not mark a break with the recent past of radical Irish republicanism, but rather the next phase in our struggle for a united and equal Ireland. The task of those that follow in Gerry Adams’ footsteps is to remain true to his vision while adapting our tactics and strategies to suit an ever changing present and future.

Thirty years after first reading The Politics of Irish Freedom and twenty two years after joining Sinn Féin I feel privileged to have known and worked directly with Gerry Adams. I am proud to describe myself as a Gerry Adams republican. More than anything else he has taught me that ours is “an ideology of the dispossessed seeking equality”.

[anon61878697]

Few long time members were talking about some of this on the whatsappy machine earlier …

[Jimmy_Mc_Nulty]

I thought Slab already had united Ireland under the roof of his own house?!

[maroonandwhite]

The struggle for housing and healthcare is the only valid struggle, this country fully signed up for the good Friday agreement.