I completely understand why the IRA became so popular and I also understand the view that violence was necessary. However I think that anybody who is a senior member of an organisation which orders attacks which have the potential to hurt innocent people is completely fucked up in the head
I know why it became what it became. Unionists have never come to terms with why it became what it became. Still though, it did become what it became. It became Kingsmills and La Mon and Enniskillen and Jerry McCabe. Sinn Fein now are in a sort of a double bind on these things. They would say particular atrocities were âwrongâ, if you pushed them really hard they might even condemn particular atrocities, but if you actually committed those particular indefensible atrocities, there will always be a place for you at the Sinn Fein table.
The past is a strange thing, and for many people, itâs the most difficult thing of all to reconcile themselves to and be honest about. Christ, look at the US, there are many millions of people that canât reconcile themselves to the evil of the confederate side in the civil war 160 years later.
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The Provos brought the British government and unionists to the negotiating table and defended their communities when nobody else would.
Their campaign was necessary and it history will prove it was vital to delivery of a United Ireland.
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Thatâs war.
Iâd challenge that---- the war became far dirtier after the initial period. State terrorism was being carried out - the truth of which is coming out year after year⌠the nationalist communities never stopped being under attack ⌠thereâs no denying that it was propelled and used for propaganda purposes also from SF.
Then you have to oppose all war. The logical conclusion of your argument is we should have let the Nazis and imperialist Japan win WWII. Both were defeated by inflicting massive civilian casualties on their populations.
Actually it did exist, but was at its weakest point in the North for sure after the failed Border Campaign.
And I wouldnât say it was mainly remnants from the 20s either; most of them were within Constitutional parties by then.
But you could easily point to Miami show band, shankill butchers , Dublin / Monaghan and where would we be ⌠no act was justified because of the other - but itâs easy to look back 30-40 years on and far removed from the pain of it.
Some people lost loved ones and it made them more resolute for peace, others felt retribution was the answer ⌠until iâm in similar shoes, iâm reluctant to judge ⌠not withstanding blowing up innocents can never be justified.
Yeah, obvously through marriage of people whose families were on opposite sides etc. But Fine Gael essentially exists because they thought the Treaty was right. Fianna Fail exists because they thought the Treaty was wrong. And that is still broadly the case, even 100 years later. I don;t know why youâd be a member of Fianna Fail if you considered Michael Collins a hero. I donât know why youâd be a member of Fine Gael if you thought Michael Collins was wrong. Because there are very few other differences between the parties.
I donât know why youâd be a member of Sinn Fein if you didnât think that the broad thrust of the IRA campaign 1969-1997 was justified. And within that âbroad thrustâ, it would be very interesting to see what acts Sinn Fein members think were justified and which werenât. And if Sinn Fein members think that certain acts were unjustifiable, it begs the question as to why they are members, because there are a load of other left options out there whose politics on the bread and butter issues are very similar to Sinn Feinâs.
I do oppose war, I obviously have to accept that some times it is necessary as in WWII and maybe in the North (Iâm not clued up enough on that to have an opinion). Iâm merely talking about the individuals at the top making the decisions, I think anyone who is going around planning bombings and attacks in their own community with the potential to kill innocent people is a very dangerous individual, whether their cause is just or not
There arenât that many other options. How many PBP/Social Democrat candidates were there in the election outside city constituencies? Labour arenât seen as lefty anymore really
Ye are talking a lot of shite here lads.
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Labour, Social Democrats, Greens, PBP. Thatâs four options. Theyâd have more candidates if they had more members and had more support, the chicken and the egg and all that. On the bread and butter issues, Sinn Fein are close enough to all of them and theyâre all close enough to each other. They all agree on a hell of a lot more stuff that they disagree on. And SF too broadly agrees with them on most things.
SF just has a past that the others donât.
I think that it would be possible to be a Sinn Fein member in the South and not think too much about the Troubles and accept in a kind of a glib way that the Ira campaign was justified particularly if you were in your thirties and werenât confronted with the horror of it everyday in the papers and on the news. And werenât left considering the moral complexity of it all day in day out because it overreached everything that happened in this country for 30 years.
Even then amongst older people there will be gradients of thought depending on how old you were when things like Bloody Sunday happened and how your emotions coped with that For some people that event was so traumatic it justified everything that came after. For others events like Le Mon were so wicked that nothing could justify them.
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You donât oppose war if you believe sometimes it is necessary, you canât have it both ways.
If you engage in war you have to accept the consequences. History tells us that once war begins, morals become irrelevant as both sides are committed to winning. Where was the Geneva convention on Bloody Sunday 1972? or in Dresden or Hisoshima in 1945? Nowhere to be found is the answer.
War is nasty business, and brutalizes people, but yet sometimes is necessary.
Well thereâs a UK PM now and plenty of other people in his party who are doing a fairly good job of appearing to justify such atrocities.
SF has a proud past, ordinary men who did extraordinary things, men and women who sacrificed and risked their lives to enhance their oppressed communities.
Labour are the party of dodgy planning applications.
The British have never faced up to their responsibility for the NI troubles. The reality is what was allowed go on in NI in terms of religious discrimination would never have been allowed on the mainland.
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Labour would be foolish to go into power now as the mud flap for the other two. They need to go away and rebuild.
Soc Dems would want to be very careful also, they are building a nice brand among the woke brigade that could come tumbling down very quickly when real life decisions have to be made. They are at a crucial stage in terms of passing out labour, as the âsafeâ left option.
Canât see FF going in with PBP.
Independents doesnât work, itâs way too messy and youâd have no budget left for anything after youâd bought them all.
Itâs got to be the Greens, they are power hungry and easily exploitable. They have no real ideology other than a vague âgreennessâ. A few segregated bicycle lanes to nowhere and everyone is happy.
I do think there is a fundamental difference between the US bombing Hiroshima thousands of miles away and the IRA bombing in their own communities. My point was never to get into a debate about the merits of war, my point was simply to say that in my opinion those that organise attacks in their own communities on innocent people are dangerous individuals and should not be lauded
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