Iraq / Middle East / Murder Thread

Current Affairs
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Israel has now hit another hospital and a playground, killing more children. If I lived in Hospital, Co. Limerick, I’d be getting worried.

http://news.sky.com/story/1308990/israeli-missile-hits-gaza-hospital-compound

An Israeli missile has reportedly hit a compound housing Gaza’s largest hospital, causing casualties.

It struck a building close to the main gate of Shifa hospital in Gaza City, Palestinian police and medics said.

Moments later, a doctor at the city’s main hospital said seven children had been killed while playing in a playground in a Gaza City refugee camp by a separate Israeli missile.

A Palestinian official said 10 people in total were killed in the strike on a park.

The attacks came less than an hour after UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon likened the conflict to a “manmade hurricane”, saying “whole neighbourhoods have been reduced to rubble”.

He demanded an end to the violence “in the name of humanity” and accused Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal of being irresponsible and “morally wrong” for putting their own people at risk of being killed.

The Secretary-General called on them to demonstrate “political will” and compassionate leadership" to end the suffering.

He said Gaza was in a “critical condition” following Israeli strikes resulting in the deaths of hundreds of Palestian civilians, which he said raised “serious questions about proportionality”.

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Fuck sake.

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Horrible Israeli bastards :mad::mad::mad:

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the towel heads are looking for another cease fire I see, they must have enough of a bating, hon Israel, defend yourself to fuck

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[QUOTE=“mickee321, post: 990616, member: 367”]I haven’t posted in a bit due to a few things going on but as this conflict rumbles on I have actually decided that the…

The issue in israel is, palestinians really are not seen as human beings by I would say 80% of the population, Israel as it does with Hamas…

[/QUOTE]
great post

I bolded that as I find it amazing given the parallels with their own history and how they were dehumanized by Nazi propaganda

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Israel roll out the ministers again this evening warning parts of Gaza City to leave tonight before fresh bombings (in retaliation for 4 Israeli’s killed).

They all speak about how Hamas send rockets from civilian areas and use human shields. This is correct, it is also correct that Israel shows scant regard for these “human shields” and bomb away anyway. Therefore knowingly killing civilians. This is not “defending yourself”.

@mickee321 posted the other day, do the rest of the world want more Israeli deaths? I thought this bizarre but it’s an insight into what the thought process is in Israel - the answer is no - just less Palestinian ones.

I read the other day that the average age in Gaza City is 17 - Seventeen FFS!! When you see TV coverage of the strip it’s pure poverty and rubble and everyone met knows a very close relation killed by Israel. All Israel are achieving from this “war” is the future of Hamas.

There has to be a cleverer way…

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Interesting representation of what’s happened to the Palestinians over the past 60 years

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[QUOTE=“Watch The Break, post: 991085, member: 260”]Interesting representation of what’s happened to the Palestinians over the past 60 years

http://i.imgur.com/5jstHbd.jpg[/QUOTE]
That’s horseshit, those West Cork cunts are Huns/Yids rolled into one.

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If you were picking a wasteland to herd an unwanted population into you could do worse.

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https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/p480x480/150472_10151484496702511_1905893068_n.jpg

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When are ISIS moving on Baghdad? That should dominate the news for a while when it happens.

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[QUOTE=“The Scouse Cafu, post: 991035, member: 2660”]Israel has now hit another hospital and a playground, killing more children. If I lived in Hospital, Co. Limerick, I’d be getting worried.

http://news.sky.com/story/1308990/israeli-missile-hits-gaza-hospital-compound

An Israeli missile has reportedly hit a compound housing Gaza’s largest hospital, causing casualties.

It struck a building close to the main gate of Shifa hospital in Gaza City, Palestinian police and medics said.

Moments later, a doctor at the city’s main hospital said seven children had been killed while playing in a playground in a Gaza City refugee camp by a separate Israeli missile.

A Palestinian official said 10 people in total were killed in the strike on a park.

The attacks came less than an hour after UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon likened the conflict to a “manmade hurricane”, saying “whole neighbourhoods have been reduced to rubble”.

He demanded an end to the violence “in the name of humanity” and accused Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal of being irresponsible and “morally wrong” for putting their own people at risk of being killed.

The Secretary-General called on them to demonstrate “political will” and compassionate leadership" to end the suffering.

He said Gaza was in a “critical condition” following Israeli strikes resulting in the deaths of hundreds of Palestian civilians, which he said raised “serious questions about proportionality”.[/QUOTE]

obviously they have form but in this instance how do you know it was the IDF hit the hospital?
you dont.
Hamas have the same regard for their civilian population as they IDF do and something tells me this was a perfect photo opportunity given the failure of ceasefire talks
This conflict is totally fucked up, in order to understand what is really going on you need to abandon all humanity and position yourself as one of the combatants. One side claim they are defending their civilains from rocket fire so are bombing other civilians, the other side are intent on the destruction of its neighbour, both sides see casualties as mere collateral damage
There can be no solution here, 1,000 are dead in gaza, whats ten more?.. 4 died in israel tonight, there’s already been 50, you become immune to it after a while

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[QUOTE=“TheUlteriorMotive, post: 991050, member: 2272”]great post

I bolded that as I find it amazing given the parallels with their own history and how they were dehumanized by Nazi propaganda[/QUOTE]

i find it amazing too, this is based on only my experience mind.
People here are totally indifferent to those dying in Gaza, the attitude really is , we want the rockets to stop , the deaths are bad but we will do what we can to prevent our own kids being murdered which lets face it is what Hamas are trying to do.
Naftali Bennet was on Sky the other night, he was telling yer one that until she lives in a place where you are under threat of people tunnelling under your kids school to kill them then you cannot understand the Israeli position, and he is right., but it does not justify the murder that is now going on.
The jews genuinely feel that their country is under threat, they willl do what they have to defend it and they see those who are trying to destroy them to be not worthy of life… People want this to stop, but they really almost do not understand the root cause as to why its happening, they cant deal with it… its fucked up, they dont get that you cant blockade a port, build a settlement and not piss people off, they see it as mere security.
History means nothing in the middle east, its all about the here and now, and this is not just israel, there is no going back, no one is giving up any territory, no one cares what happens in 1948 and 1967 because as far as the jews are concerned no one cares about the 6 million that died between 1039-1944 and they sure as hell wont let it happen again… at what cost tho… it is what it is now… there is no negotiating to the 1967 borders or what ever,

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Mickee you have made a few points suggesting wrongs on both sides and the like. This is a common enough type of reasoning that people like to apply to conflicts to show some sort of balance and it allows them to dodge having a firm opinion on resolving the issues. It also creates some sort of equality of wrongs so that it all squares off nicely. Military superpower Israel’s destruction of the 3rd world shithole it pushed the Palestinians into should not get this easy treatment.
Fact is Hamas were democratically elected by the people of gaza. If there was a vote tomorrow in gaza they would win again. You have pointed out a fair few times that they have in their charter the destruction of Israel. They had this in their charter when they were elected. Irish republicans will say that they will never accept brit rule in the 6 counties and were committed to using force to fight it but through compromise they have power sharing and peace. Just because Hamas have laid out their stall saying if Israel didn’t exist it would be better for all, does not make them terrorists.
Hamas are absolutely 100% right to launch rockets at Israel. They have taken more than enough from Israel over recent years and need to make life uncomfortable enough that the Israeli government need to start real negotiations. I applaud their fight, it’s regrettable that this is the only avenue open to them but Abbas and fattah show that the Uncle Tom route gets you nowhere.
Israel has a firm grip on the media reporting.
This human shields crap is an easy propaganda defence for lobbing bombs into a densely populated city.
How many stooges have rolled out the lines about the tunnels? Does anyone really believe the shelling of hospitals is really about some poxy tunnels?
I take your point about it seeming like the world needs some Jews to die to level things up, of course Israel is going to use the iron dome or whatever it has to defend itself.
However this is a conflict of one occupying power shitting all over the natives for the last 70 years and still refusing to get anywhere close to talking about a realistic solution. This is the plantation of ulster all over again. They need to be brought to their knees economically and face chaos and mass casualties if necessary to understand that they need to come to an accommodation with the people they usurped or else deal with the consequences.
Also role of US in backing them is shameful. Worse again is the history of the brits who left the place in fucking heap when they pulled out.
Hard to have any sympathy for Israel while they refuse to even entertain a 2 state solution. I say fuck them till they cop on and good luck to the elected government of the besieged people of gaza.

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[QUOTE=“mickee321, post: 991102, member: 367”]obviously they have form but in this instance how do you know it was the IDF hit the hospital?
you dont.
[/QUOTE]
NBC News had a crew there who witnessed it and said it was an Israeli strike. This is what Israel is reduced to now. Lying about about its murderous rampage.

Good article here about how Israel spins things. Obviously we sort of know all this stuff already as this sort of thing has been demonstrated countless times before but it’s good to see it laid out clearly.

[SIZE=6]http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-israel_b_5624401.html

Debunking Israel’s 11 Main Myths About Gaza, Hamas and War Crimes
Mehdi Hasan[/SIZE]
Posted: 28/07/2014 11:55 BST Updated: 28/07/2014 18:59 BST

You’ve got to hand it to Israeli spinners like Mark Regev. They are masters of PR. In fact, as the Independent’s [BCOLOR=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Patrick Cockburn[/BCOLOR] revealed over the weekend, “the playbook they are using is a professional, well-researched and confidential study on how to influence the media and public opinion in America and Europe”.

Let’s be clear: I’m no fan of Hamas, a brutal and anti-Semitic[/URL] group which has been accused by Amnesty International and other NGOs of [URL=‘http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/report/hamas-waged-deadly-campaign-war-devastated-gaza-20090212’]human rights abuses[/URL] against the people of Gaza and of [URL=‘http://rt.com/news/172232-israel-gaza-amnesty-war-crimes/’]war crimes against the people of Israel. Firing rockets into civilian areas isn’t justified under international law, even if it is framed as part of a (legitimate) struggle against foreign military occupation.

Having said that, however, in recent days I’ve been debating supporters of Israel’s latest assault on Gaza on radio[/URL] and on [URL=‘https://twitter.com/mehdirhasan’]Twitter and I’ve been astonished not just by the sheer number of fact-free claims made by those supporters, but also by their confidence, slickness and sheer message discipline. According to the pro-Israel, pro-IDF crowd, Hamas is to blame for everything.

This, of course, is utter nonsense. To quote the late US senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan: “You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.”

So, in a Moynihanian spirit, here are fact-filled, evidence-based rebuttals to the 11 main myths, half-truths and self-serving ‘talking points’ that are repeatedly pushed by various Israeli spokespersons, both on the airwaves and on social media:

1) The Gaza Strip isn’t occupied by Israel

[I]Boston Globe[/I][/URL]: “Israeli-imposed buffer zones… now absorb nearly 14 percent of Gaza’s total land and at least 48 percent of total arable land. Similarly, the sea buffer zone covers 85 percent of the maritime area promised to Palestinians in the Oslo Accords, reducing 20 nautical miles to three.” [URL=‘http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/02/05/israel-end-restrictions-palestinian-residency’]Human Rights Watch[/URL]: “Israel also continues to control the population registry for residents of the Gaza Strip, years after it withdrew its ground forces and settlements there.” [URL=‘http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/control_on_air_space_and_territorial_waters’]B’Tselem, 2013: “Israel continues to maintain exclusive control of Gaza’s airspace and the territorial waters, just as it has since it occupied the Gaza Strip in 1967.”

2) Israel wants a ceasefire but Hamas doesn’t

Al Jazeera[/URL]: “Meshaal said Hamas wants the ‘aggression to stop tomorrow, today, or even this minute. But [Israel must] lift the blockade with guarantees and not as a promise for future negotiations’. He added ‘we will not shut the door in the face of any humanitarian ceasefire backed by a real aid programme’.” [URL=‘http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/What-are-Hamass-conditions-for-a-cease-fire-363011’]Jerusalem Post[/URL]: “One day after an Egyptian-brokered cease-fire accepted by Israel, but rejected by Hamas, fell through, the terrorist organization [B]proposed a 10-year end to hostilities[/B] in return for its conditions being met by Israel, Channel 2 reported Wednesday… Hamas’s conditions were the release of re-arrested Palestinian prisoners who were let go in the Schalit deal, the opening of Gaza-Israel border crossings in order to allow citizens and goods to pass through, and international supervision of the Gazan seaport in place of the current Israeli blockade.” [URL=‘http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28494081’]BBC: “Israel’s security cabinet has rejected a week-long Gaza ceasefire proposal put forward by US Secretary of State John Kerry ‘as it stands’.”

3) Israel, unlike Hamas, doesn’t deliberately target civilians

The [I]Guardian[/I][/URL]: “It was there that the second [Israeli] shell hit the beach, those firing apparently adjusting their fire to target the fleeing survivors. As it exploded, journalists standing by the terrace wall shouted: ‘They are only children.’” [URL=‘http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2702485/Israel-investigated-war-crimes-Gaza-UN-says.html’]UN high commissioner for human rights Navi Pillay[/URL]: “A number of incidents, along with the high number of civilian deaths, belies the [Israeli] claim that all necessary precautions are being taken to protect civilian lives.” [URL=‘http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf’]United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict, 2009: “The tactics used by the Israeli armed forces in the Gaza offensive are consistent with previous practices, most recently during the Lebanon war in 2006. A concept known as the Dahiya doctrine emerged then, involving the application of disproportionate force and the causing of great damage and destruction to civilian property and infrastructure, and suffering to civilian populations. The Mission concludes from a review of the facts on the ground that it… appears to have been precisely what was put into practice.”

4) Only Hamas is guilty of war crimes, not Israel

Human Rights Watch[/URL]: “Israeli forces may also have knowingly or recklessly attacked people who were clearly civilians, such as young boys, and civilian structures, including a hospital - laws-of-war violations that are indicative of war crimes.”[URL=‘http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israelgaza-prevent-further-war-crimes-after-israeli-ground-assault-2014-07-18’]Amnesty International: “Deliberately attacking a civilian home is a war crime, and the overwhelming scale of destruction of civilian homes, in some cases with entire families inside them, points to a distressing pattern of repeated violations of the laws of war.”

5) Hamas use the civilians of Gaza as ‘human shields’

Jeremy Bowen, BBC Middle East editor[/URL]: “I saw no evidence during my week in Gaza of Israel’s accusation that Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields.” [URL=‘http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/gaza-displaced-palestinians-not-safe’]The Guardian[/URL]: “In the past week, the Guardian has seen large numbers of people fleeing different neighbourhoods… and no evidence that Hamas had compelled them to stay.” [URL=‘http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html’]The Independent[/URL]: “Some Gazans have admitted that they were afraid of criticizing Hamas, but none have said they had been forced by the organisation to stay in places of danger and become unwilling human-shields.” [URL=‘http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/20/us-palestinian-israel-children-idUSBRE95J0FR20130620’]Reuters, 2013: “A United Nations human rights body accused Israeli forces on Thursday of mistreating Palestinian children, including by torturing those in custody and using others as human shields.”

[B]6) This current Gaza conflict began with Hamas rocket fire on 30 June 2014
[I]Times of Israel[/I][/URL]: “Hamas operatives were behind a large volley of rockets which slammed into Israel Monday morning, the first time in years the Islamist group has directly challenged the Jewish state, according to Israeli defense officials… The security sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, assessed that Hamas had[B]probably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier[/B] which killed one person and injured three more… Hamas hasn’t fired rockets into Israel since Operation Pillar of Defense ended in November 2012.” [URL=‘http://www.thenation.com/article/180783/five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked#’]The Nation: “During ten days of Operation Brother’s Keeper in the West Bank [before the start of the Gaza conflict], Israel arrested approximately 800 Palestinians without charge or trial, killed nine civilians and raided nearly 1,300 residential, commercial and public buildings. Its military operation targeted Hamas members released during the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011.”

7) Hamas has never stopped firing rockets into Israel

Jewish Daily Forward[/URL]: “Hamas hadn’t fired a single rocket since [2012 Gaza conflict], and had largely suppressed fire by smaller jihadi groups. Rocket firings, averaging 240 per month in 2007, dropped to five per month in 2013.” [URL=‘http://www.crisisgroup.org/~/media/Files/Middle%20East%20North%20Africa/Israel%20Palestine/b039-gaza-and-israel-new-obstacles-new-solutions.pdf’]International Crisis Group: “Fewer rockets were fired from Gaza in 2013 than in any year since 2001, and nearly all those that were fired between the November 2012 ceasefire and the current crisis were launched by groups other than Hamas; the Israeli security establishment testified to the aggressive anti-rocket efforts made by the new police force Hamas established specifically for that purpose… As Israel (and Egypt) rolled back the 2012 understandings - some of which were implemented spottily at best - so too did Hamas roll back its anti rocket efforts.”

8) Hamas provoked Israel by kidnapping and killing three Israeli teenagers

Jewish Daily Forward[/URL]: “The [Israeli] government had known almost from the beginning that the boys were dead. It maintained the fiction that it hoped to find them alive as a pretext to dismantle Hamas’ West Bank operations… Nor was that the only fib. It was clear from the beginning that the kidnappers weren’t acting on orders from Hamas leadership in Gaza or Damascus. Hamas’ Hebron branch – more a crime family than a clandestine organization – had a history of acting without the leaders’ knowledge, sometimes against their interests.” [URL=‘https://twitter.com/JonDonnison/status/492632584736612353’]BBC correspondent Jon Donnison: “Israeli police MickeyRosenfeld tells me men who killed 3 Israeli teens def lone cell, hamas affiliated but not operating under leadership… Seems to contradict the line from Netanyahu government.”

9) Hamas rule, not Israel’s blockade, is to blame for the humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip

US State Department cable[/URL]: “Israeli officials have confirmed to Embassy officials on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis… Israeli officials have confirmed… on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge.” [URL=‘http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/17/israeli-military-calorie-limit-gaza’]The Guardian: “The Israeli military made precise calculations of Gaza’s daily calorie needs to avoid malnutrition during a blockade imposed on the Palestinian territory between 2007 and mid-2010, according to files the defence ministry released on Wednesday under a court order… The Israeli advocacy group Gisha… waged a long court battle to release the document. Its members say Israel calculated the calorie needs for Gaza’s population so as to restrict the quantity of food it allowed in.”

10) The Israeli government, unlike Hamas, wants a two-state solution

[I]Times of Israel[/I]: “[Netanyahu] made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank… Amid the current conflict, he elaborated, ‘I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.’”

11) All serious analysts agree it was Hamas, and not Israel, that started this current conflict

Nathan Thrall, senior Mid East analyst at the International Crisis Group, writing in the New York Times[/URL]: “The current escalation in Gaza is a direct result of the choice by Israel and the West to obstruct the implementation of the April 2014 Palestinian reconciliation agreement.” [URL=‘http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/07/israel-provoked-this-war-109229.html#.U9ToRI1dVZZ’]Henry Siegman, former national director, American Jewish Congress, writing for Politico: “Israel’s assault on Gaza… was not triggered by Hamas’ rockets directed at Israel but by Israel’s determination to bring down the Palestinian unity government that was formed in early June, even though that government was committed to honoring all of the conditions imposed by the international community for recognition of its legitimacy.”[/B]

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http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/students-offered-scholarships-for-proisrael-posts-on-social-media-30462518.html

Students offered scholarships for pro-Israel posts on social media

Ben Lynfield in Jerulsalem, for Independent.co.uk
Published 27/07/2014|10:45

In a campaign to improve its image abroad, the Israeli government plans to provide scholarships to hundreds of students at its seven universities in exchange for their making pro-Israel [BCOLOR=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Facebook[/BCOLOR] posts and tweets to foreign audiences.

The students making the posts will not reveal online that they are funded by the Israeli government, according to correspondence about the plan revealed in the [BCOLOR=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Haaretz[/BCOLOR] newspaper.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office, which will oversee the programme, confirmed its launch and wrote that its aim was to “strengthen Israeli public diplomacy and make it fit the changes in the means of information consumption”.

The government’s hand is to be invisible to the foreign audiences. Daniel Seaman, the official who has been planning the effort, wrote in a letter on 5 August to a body authorising government projects that “the idea requires not making the role of the state stand out and therefore it is necessary to adhere to great involvement of the students themselves, without political linkage or affiliation”.

According to the plan, students are to be organised into units at each university, with a chief co-ordinator who receives a full scholarship, three desk co-ordinators for language, graphics and research who receive lesser scholarships and students termed “activists” who will receive a “minimal scholarship”.

Mr Netanyahu’s aides said the main topics the units would address related to political and security issues, combating calls to boycott Israel and combating efforts to question Israel’s legitimacy. The officials said the students would stress Israeli democratic values, freedom of religion and pluralism.

But Alon Liel, the doveish former director-general of the Israeli foreign ministry, criticised the plan as “quite disgusting”. “University students should be educated to think freely. When you buy the mind of a student, he becomes a puppet of the Israeli government grant,” he said. “You can give a grant to do social work or teach but not to do propaganda on controversial issues for the government.”

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You’d know very little about West Cork you fiddle playing cunt.
One of the most beautiful and friendly places in the world.

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[QUOTE=“caoimhaoin, post: 991243, member: 273”]You’d know very little about West Cork you fiddle playing cunt.
One of the most beautiful and friendly places in the world.[/QUOTE]

Kev wummed again with little or no effort by wtb

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[QUOTE=“mickee321, post: 991102, member: 367”]obviously they have form but in this instance how do you know it was the IDF hit the hospital?
you dont.
Hamas have the same regard for their civilian population as they IDF do and something tells me this was a perfect photo opportunity given the failure of ceasefire talks[/QUOTE]

this isnt the first time you mentioned something like this Mickee, it was the same when the 4 boys were killed on the beach that time too. Personally, given the history and form of the IDF and Israel, I find this line of thinking really strange from Israel. I was reading one of their national papers online last week, and the front page of it was ‘700 killed in Gaza, most of them Hamas terrorists’. It was the ‘Times of Israel’ that I read it in, but cant find the article there now. But this shite about them hiding in hospitals and stuff, thats no excuse. Its just Israel propaganda to make them seem somewhat justified.

I dont think Israel realises that they are turning more and more people to Hamas. By persecuting the citizens in Gaza the way they do, all they are doing is enforcing a hatred of the people on Israel. Saying that the world wants to see more Israeli deaths is just stupid too. No one wants to see more deaths. But they are defending themselves more than adequately with the iron dome and stopping the tunnels, but then they are obliterating them by firstly taking them out from every angle, and then the blockade they have on them is leaving them dying themselves, which is genocide in itself and creating such a shortage of food to be able to go in. But then Israels argument for that is ‘oh sure you spend money on rockets but not your own’. so what, you either die from malnutrition, or you die from being bombed.

I cant say I would defend Hamas for what they are doing, how could you, but at the same time I dont know what they can actually do. They are being destroyed where they are and being forced out and forced to die by the conditions set upon them.