Jean Charles de Menezes

OK, look. Leave aside all the nitpicking details for a minute.

I know the police said he jumped over the barrier, when in reality he paid for his ticket with a credit card and walked through.

I know the police said he ran away from them and that it later turned out he did nothing of the sort.

I know they claimed to have shouted warnings when in fact they did not.

I know they said he was wearing bulky clothing that could have hidden a bomb, when in fact he was lightly dressed.

I know they tried to blacken his character in an attempt to divert attention from their own failures.

And I realise theres the small fact that he was a completely innocent man.

OK?

I know all that and I can understand it. People tell all sorts of lies when theyre afraid of being found out.

Heres what I really dont understand: how many times do you need to shoot somebody at close range in the head with exploding bullets before youre sure hes dead? I mean, after his head explodes the first time, wouldnt you conclude that he was no longer a threat?

Not the Metropolitan Police, it seems.

How many times did the Metropolitan Police fire head-exploding bullets into Jean Charles deMenezes before they were certain he no longer represented a threat?

Once?

No.

Twice?

No!

Three times?

Nah!

Four?

Five?

Well, even though Jean Charles de Menezes had no head left, the Metropolitan Police were still uncertain whether or not he was dangerous, so they shot him a sixth time, again in the non-existent head, with exploding bullets.

Professionals that they are, the Met were still not satisfied. Well, this is the best-trained police force in the world, or so they like to remind us, and so the Metropolitan Police were taking no chances. They fired one last hollow-point bullet into the pool of pulp that used to be his head, just to be sure.

Just to be absolutely sure, they also shot him four more times in a fusillade that lasted about thirty seconds.

Thatll teach those pesky Brazilians to walk around London in string bikinis, looking nothing like Arabs and carelessly getting themselves mistaken for terrorist suspects by acting too casual. And by being electricians going to work.

That case is an absolute disgrace.

As usual nobody in authority pays the price. The report is designed to appease the outraged public by acknowledging the errors but it’s careful not to blame any institutions or key individuals.

Sickening.

Summary of the incident from the Guardian:

Confusion, delay, disaster: how police got the wrong man

From a vital clue to a fatal case of mistaken identity, officers were hampered by lack of communication

Vikram Dodd Crime correspondent
Friday November 2, 2007
The Guardian

On the morning of July 22 2005, Scotland Yard was hunting four people who had tried to bomb London’s transport system the previous afternoon. The devices failed to go off and police were in a race against time to catch the bombers before they struck again.
The force was under the most pressure it had faced in living memory. The attempted attacks, coming just a fortnight after suicide bombers had killed 52 and injured 750, had left the nation on edge.

The trial, which ended yesterday, presented new facts as to why Jean Charles de Menezes, a white Brazilian electrician was confused by police for a terrorist of east African origin. Over two years since the shooting many key questions remain unanswered or in dispute.

Why did police follow De Menezes?

In the middle of the night police made a breakthrough. One of the failed devices recovered from Shepherd’s Bush underground was in a bag that contained a gym membership card belonging to one bomber, Hussain Osman. Police linked him to 21 Scotia Road, in Tulse Hill.

The breakthrough came just after 4.30am and by 5.05, Commander John McDowell had ordered surveillance teams to the south London address.

The plan

The surveillance teams were to be backed up by elite firearms officers from the SO19 unit. The aim was to stop and detain anyone emerging from the premises and to rule them out or in as being Osman. They would be stopped a safe distance from the flat, to avoid alerting any terrorists still inside the block.

The surveillance officers were from special branch and some of them were armed for their own protection. They lacked the training to enact a “stop” of a suspected determined suicide bomber.

The first problem the surveillance team ran into was that the suspect’s address was in a block of eight flats and people were leaving through a shared door. The first surveillance team was outside the flats by 6am, a second team was in place by 8.33. The Met had several large operations under way that morning but 21 Scotia Road was one of the most important.

The operation was run from a special control room several miles away, based in room 1600 at New Scotland Yard. In charge was Cressida Dick, then at the rank of commander, who had vast experience in firearms operations.

Was he ever identified as the terrorist?

At 9.33 De Menezes left the flats through the communal door. There was no way for officers to tell from which flat he came. In fact he had left flat 17, which was not the suspect address.

One surveillance officer seconded from the SAS was relieving himself as De Menezes left. He was codenamed Frank and radioed in to the control room at Scotland Yard. He said he could not tell whether the person was Osman, but correctly identified him as white and as not carrying anything. He said: “It might be worth somebody else having a look.”

De Menezes’ final journey saw him walk a few minutes and catch the No 2 bus to Brixton tube station. Surveillance officers were following him and at 9.36 an officer called Edward thought the suspect looked north African.

De Menezes took the bus to Brixton station but it was closed. He then double backed on himself and took a bus to Stockwell underground station. This innocent action was taken by some officers as a tactic to try and shake off surveillance.

According to Ms Dick’s evidence, at first the reports from the team on the ground were that the man being followed was not Osman, whom police had given the codename Nettletip. That changed, and Ms Dick said she was told five times that the team thought the suspect was Osman and was told the confidence in the identification grew stronger.

Ms Dick explained the factors behind her eventual order that the subject be stopped. The first factor was the surveillance team’s repeated belief that the man was the terrorist suspect they were hunting. She added: “Secondly, from the behaviours described to me - nervousness, agitation, sending text messages, [using] the telephone, getting on and off the bus, all added to the picture of someone potentially intent on causing an explosion.”

Was the plan followed?

Commander McDowell’s plan, drawn up at 5am, stated that firearms officers from SO19 should be present to stop people emerging from the premises, but they took over four hours to be assembled, briefed, and to get in the area. One special branch officer told the jury the delay was unacceptable. It meant De Menezes could not be stopped as the plan stated.

The crown’s case was that because SO19 took so long, the public was put at unnecessary risk. If De Menezes had been a suicide bomber, the delay meant he was allowed to ride two buses and get on a train.

Furthermore, according to the evidence of one surveillance officer, six people emerged from the block of flats before De Menezes and were not stopped. The police in court said the plan Commander McDowell had laid down was “finessed” once it was realised there was a communal entrance to the flats.

The order

Ms Dick insisted she never gave an order for the man police were following that morning to be shot. She wanted him stopped before entering the tube system.

Furthermore, a special shoot to kill tactic called Operation Kratos was not ordered that morning. Kratos is a tactic developed by police to tackle suicide bombers in which officers could shoot dead a terrorist about to explode a device without shouting a warning. It had been thought the Stockwell shooting had been carried out under Kratos, but the trial revealed it had not.

The crown said that orders from the control room described the chaos. At 10.03 they were told the subject was off the bus and heading for the underground. One minute later Commander Dick ordered that he be stopped before entering the station, but with SO19 still not on the scene she ordered that the surveillance team tackle the subject, despite them being inadequately trained.

Seconds later she countermanded the order after a senior colleague told her SO19 were now at the station, and would make the stop. The firearms team went to “state red” meaning they would intervene and arrest the suspect. In the control room they expected the suspect to be stopped outside the tube station.

But by now it was too late. De Menezes was going down a station escalator. Surveillance officers saw him pick up a free newspaper and put his ticket through the barriers. After getting on the train the Brazilian had undercover officers surrounding him, posing as commuters.

The train did not move, staying in the station because a surveillance officer jammed a carriage door with his foot. As the train waited the SO19 team hurtled down the escalators and reached the carriage.

They were not undercover, but wore caps identifying them as police officers. One had a long barrelled weapon visible. If De Menezes had been a suicide bomber he would have had ample time and warning to detonate his device, said the crown.

Why did the police open fire?

The firearms officers said they were briefed that morning that they may face a determined suicide bomber and may have to use lethal force.

They entered the carriage having heard over police radios that the man their colleagues had been following was the suspect for an attempted suicide bombing the previous day. They entered aware of the command for the suspect to be stopped.

They entered the tube carriage where they were recognised by surveillance officers, who at first quietly pointed in De Menezes’ direction, then one said: “He’s here,” and pointed again.

What happened next is still disputed by the Brazilian’s family. Police say they shouted a verbal challenge at which point De Menezes stood up. An official investigation could find no independent witness on the train who heard the police shout any warning or to back up the substance of their account.

After De Menezes stood up, a surveillance officer called Ivor told the jury that he “instinctively” grabbed him. He said that De Menezes arms moved downwards, heading towards his midriff, an action interpretable as a motion trying to detonate a device.

Ivor told the jury: "I grabbed Mr Menezes, wrapping both my arms around the torso, pinning his arms against his side, pushing him back to the seat with the right hand side of my head against the right hand side of his torso, pinning him to the seat.

“After a few moments I felt his head turn towards me. I was aware of an SO19 officer kneeling on the seat to my left. I heard a gunshot very close to my left ear and was hit by a shockwave of a gun being discharged.” In all seven shots were fired, five hitting the back of De Menezes’ head, one his shoulder.

In the chaos, running towards a man they say they believed was about to explode a bomb, the firearms officers thought even Ivor was a suspect and dragged him to the floor.

Ivor found himself facing his own colleague’s guns and told the jury: “I was aware that the long-barrelled weapon was levelled at my chest and the barrel of a gun was at my head.” The officer said he was then wrenched out of the carriage. His arms were still in the air and he then put on his chequered police cap.

“I could hear several gunshots and shouting and screaming,” Ivor said. “The scene was extremely violent, extremely noisy and obviously distressing. Members of the public were emptying the carriage, obviously in distress. There was a lot of gunsmoke.”

The train driver was chased down a darkened tunnel by armed officers, commuters screamed and fled.

Back in room 1600 at New Scotland Yard, they waited. Police radios did not work underground meaning once officers entered the station, they could not receive or ask for further instructions.

At 10.08, 35 minutes after Jean Charles de Menezes left his flat to go to work, came the message from Stockwell. The suspect had been shot.

Minutes later, Commander Dick told the jury, she began to fear that an innocent man may have been killed. Barely 15 minutes after De Menezes had been shot, an explosives expert confirmed he was not carrying a bomb, and documents on him revealed his name and identity.

Commander Dick - an adequate name I would have said

I know the police said he jumped over the barrier, when in reality he paid for his ticket with a credit card and walked through.

It’s called an Oyster Card Flingo, at least have some respect for London!

I’ll put into the equation the paranoid factor, ie. The Mets really thought they were murdering a terrorist in a city crippled with fear (and still is to an extent). Who on this board would love to have the oppertunity to put a few bullets in the head of a person on his way to kill hundreds? It was done for the greater good or so the Mets thought!

Having said that though there is no excuse for what happened and the Mets should have confronted the suspected terrorist in the ticket hall of Stockwell. It’s a pity Brixton Underground wasn’t open, there might have been another riot!

What the fook is an oyster card?

The Mets can suck my big hairy danglers.

Despicable behaviour.

Do you know anything about London??

It’s a plastic card that you top up in shops etc. and then use for public transport by touching it against turnstiles or ticket validating machines. It’s like the Luas Smartcard.

Ray Foley uses Oyster cards :grin:

Get back on topic about Menezes now…

Flano wrote:

[quote]Ray Foley uses Oyster cards :grin:

[quote]

There’s no need for you to insult about 7 million Londoners!!!

Are You A Mad Man Flano???

Lets roll back and see what the cops saw…

First; An IC2 Male, Running through a semi-packed Tube station,
Second; actually I don’t need a second, number one is enough to shoot on sight.

Bottom line is that given that climate in London at the time NOBODY with the wrong skin colour should’ve used public transport.

Anyway, I’m sure he made GREAT TARGET PRACTISE for the young detectives on the day!!

‘A bit like Hat McCullough, If they didn’t kill him, He’d have killed them- Its self defense’
I’m Sure Ian Blair will back me up on that one…

Bottom line is that given that climate in London at the time NOBODY with the wrong skin colour should’ve used public transport.

Black and Asian people drive buses in London, should we shoot them aswell, this comment is twattish!!

what exactly is the wrong colour?

We have to assume that our new member (welcome btw) is refering to every colour that isn’t white. Funny really given that Jean Charles de Menezes was white, so I don’t really see the point!

All Change Please, wrote:

Are You A Mad Man Flano???

Lets roll back and see what the cops saw…

First; An IC2 Male, Running through a semi-packed Tube station,
Second; actually I don’t need a second, number one is enough to shoot on sight.

Bottom line is that given that climate in London at the time NOBODY with the wrong skin colour should’ve used public transport.

Anyway, I’m sure he made GREAT TARGET PRACTISE for the young detectives on the day!!

‘A bit like Hat McCullough, If they didn’t kill him, He’d have killed them- Its self defense’
I’m Sure Ian Blair will back me up on that one…

Disgusting! and has already been pointed out Jean Charles was white.

Ben, I’ve a feeling you have something to do with this new member.

All Change Please, wrote:

Are You A Mad Man Flano???

Lets roll back and see what the cops saw…

First; An IC2 Male, Running through a semi-packed Tube station,
Second; actually I don’t need a second, number one is enough to shoot on sight.

Bottom line is that given that climate in London at the time NOBODY with the wrong skin colour should’ve used public transport.

Anyway, I’m sure he made GREAT TARGET PRACTISE for the young detectives on the day!!

‘A bit like Hat McCullough, If they didn’t kill him, He’d have killed them- Its self defense’
I’m Sure Ian Blair will back me up on that one…

Deary me.

Waht a debut post.

Ben, I’ve a feeling you have something to do with this new member.

At least I’m trying to promote the board, you haven’t brought a new member in since that Ben Shermin arsehole!

how were your bdays drink? flango pull?

Excuse me I have brought in new members since you. We dont want the sort you’re bringing on here :grin: .

As for Ravens question, didn’t pull, didn’t try to be fair.

Some of you may know of a punters called the Ivorys. Well the younger one was out for the festivities. If Clarkey hadnt been in Galway he could have jumped him like he wants too :w00t: