What the fuck is Wood at with Armitage and Leamy?
I must pop up their initial teams, pre 6 Nations, one second.
This might be of interest to some of you
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/tomfordyce/2009/03/the_alternative_six_nations_aw.html
And their original selections, pre 6 Nations
Fair play to Guscott and Davies for picking Bowe pre-tournament.
Woodâs call of Earls is ridiculous, as is the idea that Armitage has moved ahead of Byrne in the pecking order since the 6 Nations began. If anything the gap between Byrne and everyone else has widened.
Wood makes the argument (somewhat validly) that Byrnes injury problems will only be exacerbated by the hard ground of SA. He has a point in that one to be fair to him. Personally, I think Byrne is the stand out over the 6 Nations, due to Wales attempting to play to his strengths, and that Kearney suffered for Ireland playing away from his. I can understand where Woody is coming from but you have to put Byrne in pole position and go from there.
As regards Earls, it was an astonishing pick, a bit of a wild card to say the least. Iâd like to see him explain it somewhere. I realise BOD was in some sticky form pre tournament, but to leave him out for someone like Earls is a bit much, especially considering Woodys own knowledge of the man. He should be eat some humble pie for that one.
Well lads talking about the backs when going to SA is a bit like worrying about your ground hurling skills when playing Kilkenny - So I suggest we need to focus !
There seems to be no outstanding front row talent around. Most seem to be going for murray, after that its a toss up. One of the reasons why the lions won the last time in SA was the ability to scum lower than SA. I dont think anyone would have chosen that front row before they left, could there be a twist in this selection?
The second row seems to be anyone with OâConnell. Again there is nothing to get excited about to go with him⌠how about big Simon Shaw, hugh man.
The back row, out to OH is where the game winning decisions will be made.
Do the lions move the ball wide to move around SA big pack - makes no 7 Williams the main man along with a running out half (flutey ?)
or
do they chose a big back row to combat SA around the edges, no 7 wallace, ( protect the tactical OâGara)
Remember the last tour, Scott Gibbs, Tim Rober, Neill Jenkins at full back ?, Paul Wallace where the difference - not the names you would have picked before hand.
Enough bullshlt form talk - you beat SA in the forwards - so how would you do it ?
Cookie
Good post âcookieââŚ
The mention of Rodber and Gibbs with Jenkins at full back, is worthy. Also look at the test selections Jeremy Davidson and Paul Wallace the last time is worthy of note.
Physicality will be king up front against SA, and that for me is starting to point at at a 5 of Shaw, OâConnell, Ferris, Wallace, Haskell or something of that ilk.
Dont right off Hook or Cipriani filling in at 15, but as Byrnes kicking game is outstanding he is in with a shuot.
Wildcards for tour selection are Evans x2 or Ben Foden⌠game changers that could make an impact down there.
Looking forward to it now.
Reckon that it will be a big strong pack to try and compete physically with the SpringboksâŚReckon that Geech will go for Vickery at tight head, he has had a good six nations and is bang on formâŚSheridan or Gethin Jenkins will get the loose head prop spot, with Murrey as the impact sub for the front rowâŚ
Flannery is in pole position for the hooker spotâŚhis dynamism round the field will cement itâŚBetween Best and Mears for the subs spot
POC has one of the second row spots it the bagâŚI would go for either Ian Gough or Donnacha beside him, someone who does the dirty work and mix it with BothaâŚAlun Wyn Jones would be a good option off the bench
Back row, Wallace will start at 7 and Ferris is in pole position for 6âŚReckon that Ryan Jones will be the number 8, he had a fine game and looked far more comfortable at 8 last weekendâŚI am a big fan of Tom Croft and was disappointed to se it took him 4 games to get his start for England but he is a back row that is made for taking on the South Africans and i expect him to have a big tourâŚ
I am looking for something out of the box - impact and game changers are all very good but I donât think that will be the big thing of the coaching staff. MacG is no fool and he knows that he will have to really look at the way he is going to play ,all the game, before picking the squad let alone the team.
Two of the games are at altitude. That is going to be a big ask. Kicking game is going to be key. What does that mean for the running game ?
Jenkins was faultless in goal kicking last time, indeed SA scored more tries. Lions played with a centre at out half, out half at full back and the fastest prop in the world at centre and 3 no8s in the back row and both props under 6 foot
One thing is for sure, Oâgara canât play if williams plays at 7. If Williams does not play at 7 the lions canât run the ball. There is no replacement for william either - could you build a tour around him ?
Is this the big call ?
PS. Hayes for loose head ?
[quote=âcookieâ]I am looking for something out of the box - impact and game changers are all very good but I donât think that will be the big thing of the coaching staff. MacG is no fool and he knows that he will have to really look at the way he is going to play ,all the game, before picking the squad let alone the team.
Two of the games are at altitude. That is going to be a big ask. Kicking game is going to be key. What does that mean for the running game ?
Jenkins was faultless in goal kicking last time, indeed SA scored more tries. Lions played with a centre at out half, out half at full back and the fastest prop in the world at centre and 3 no8s in the back row and both props under 6 foot
One thing is for sure, Oâgara canât play if williams plays at 7. If Williams does not play at 7 the lions canât run the ball. There is no replacement for william either - could you build a tour around him ?
Is this the big call ?
PS. Hayes for loose head ?[/quote]
hayes for loose head flies in the face of the 2 props under 6 foot criterion.
canât think of any current tight heads that could make the switch, all far too tall. might as well bring back reggie or the claw.
Props under 6 foot was used last time to get a decent scrum, the question is what way with MacG go this time ? Maybe this time we could go with two giants with even horan at hooker (only half in jest)
The more you see of hayes the better he becomes, outside the scrum he must be the best prop in the world, lineout, fringe defence, ruck and mall. If you could get him in and the scrum did not suffer he would more than pay his way.
Câmon lads - would you bring your best 30 odd players or would you pick a team looking at your oppisition ? and if so what type of team would you pick ?
[quote=âcookieâ]Props under 6 foot was used last time to get a decent scrum, the question is what way with MacG go this time ? Maybe this time we could go with two giants with even horan at hooker (only half in jest)
The more you see of hayes the better he becomes, outside the scrum he must be the best prop in the world, lineout, fringe defence, ruck and mall. If you could get him in and the scrum did not suffer he would more than pay his way.
Câmon lads - would you bring your best 30 odd players or would you pick a team looking at your oppisition ? and if so what type of team would you pick ?[/quote]
Hey Cookie, some good posts there.
One thing is though in 97 the game was only barely professional. The gap at that point between us and them physically was maybe not as big. For a few years then the southern hemisphere teams just got massive quick. Wallace and Smith were able to get by on excellent technique and an absolute beasting from Telfer in SA on scrummaging. Watching Living with the Lions would give you a fair idea of the focus on the scrummaging. You also need to take into account I think the Wood factor. Regardless of who gets picked this time around they wont bring the desire, hunger and absolute class to the position that Wood had. He led the team from the middle of the front row and that was a powerful statement of intent from the Lions.
Think McG needs to go with a big physical pack alright. Think for this reason Ferris is made for it, if you pick Wallace at 7 then though you maybe need to carry a bit of finnesse at 8. Heaslip or Jones are the obviosu choices but can anyone really see 3 Irish in the back row. ? Shaw may get selcted, but would the pace of the game be too much for him at what, 35? on hard grounds, at altitude?
There will be some shock selections no doubt about it. Think Shanklin may be a springer for one of the wing positions if only to drift inside and protect the 10 channel, regardless who they pick at 10 they will be the main target for the Bok runners. ROG isnt physical enough for it unfortunately, although if you were to play him there as a tactic to draw all the Bok runners into one area it may have some merit!!
Hayes would not do at loose head at all. 94 caps later is not the time to try this, I cant ever remember him playing there for Munster, even in an emergency
Yeah I think one of the advantages of OâGara at 10 is that it pretty much tells the opposition where to attack and you can defend there accordingly. Itâs not the hardest area in the world to cover, being only one out from the pack, so I donât think itâs the problem it might be.
Interesting thoughts on combinations and picking 7s that suit 10s etc.
I think Flannery is miles ahead at hooker and am surprised to see the amount of pundits who chose Mears and Rees at the weekend, and then those whoâve chosen Ford since. None of them carry it as well as Flannery, none maul as well as him and his throwing in has been excellent this season.
Back row will be big decisions. As others have said Ferris is tailor made for 6. You could have Wallace at 8 and Williams at 7 but youâre probably losing too much physicality. Heaslip seems like the sort of top of the ground runner whoâd enjoy the hard ground but he doesnât convince on the whole toughness side of things. One thing I did notice was a few in the English media saying Worsley should start for his physicality. The guy is nowhere near Rodberâs league on those stakes and I wouldnât have him near the team.
I think itâs Ferris, Wallace, Jones probably.
Had some of Ferris at 9/4 to start the first test. Cracking price.
Biggest indicator for Captaincy so far imo.
OâConnell is man for job - Telfer
Thursday March 26 2009
LIONS legend Jim Telfer believes Ian McGeechan will appoint Paul OâConnell as captain for this summerâs tour to South Africa.
Brian OâDriscoll is favourite to get the job after captaining the Lions on their last tour to New Zealand in 2005 and leading Ireland to their first Grand Slam in 61 years. His closest rivals are OâConnell, who led Munster to the Heineken Cup last season and Ryan Jones, Walesâs Grand Slam-winning captain in 2008.
However, Telfer, a long-time friend and colleague of McGeechanâs following their time together with Scotland and, notably, as coaches on the successful Lions trip to South Africa in 1997, believes the Lions head coach prefers to have a forward as figurehead â as he showed 12 years ago when naming Martin Johnson as captain, despite the fact the second-row did not have that role with England at the time.
outstanding
âHeâll go with OâConnell,â said Telfer. "OâDriscoll is an inspirational player, an outstanding player. But when I watch Ireland it looks to me as though OâConnell and OâGara run the team.
âOâDriscoll doesnât come across in the media as a hard b*****d. I know he does in the games, you couldnât question that, but in public heâs very easygoing. You want somebody to sit there grim-faced and mean and thatâs what Johnson did.â
After the Lions defeated the Springboks 2-1, 12 years ago, McGeechan referred to the psychological edge his men had when the captains met for the coin toss before the Tests. South Africa were captained by Gary Teichmann who, at 6â3", was four inches smaller than Johnson at 6â7".
âIan likes big men as captain, he likes a forward as a captain,â said Telfer. "Ian tells the story of Martin being a few inches taller than Teichmann and towering over him and it set the tone, which is true.
âBut Teichmann was unfortunate in a sense; Pienaar was the captain, but he went to England for the money. I think it will be OâConnell, I donât think it will be Mike Blair and I donât think it will be Ryan Jones.â
On the issue of who will fill the Lions Test back-row positions, Telfer says the Irish trio of Stephen Ferris, David Wallace and Jamie Heaslip are in with a great shout, adding that Denis Leamy â who excelled when introduced after eight minutes for the injured Ferris last weekend â is also worth taking on tour.
"People say Jones was played out of position at six, I disagree. I think he is a six, he carries the ball in the wrong hand for an eight for starters. But Jones is not certain of his place. Heaslip pushes people off better than Jones from eight, he is good at lifting the ball from the scrum. Heâs not been playing well for Leinster, but heâs played very well for Ireland. Heaslip is the kind of player Ian likes, he likes ball players, hard players, but ball players.
âLeamy is a good, tough player, but he is a six, Heaslip is a better No 8 and I think he could start for the Lions. Ferris is new to me, I hadnât noticed him all that much before this season, but heâs really impressed me. He looks a right hard b*****d.â
With OâConnell seen as a certainty for the second-row position, Walesâ Alun-Wyn Jones has been tipped as the man most likely to partner him. However, Telfer is a big admirer of OâConnellâs regular Ireland partner Donncha OâCallaghan and says that McGeechan is also.
âI know he likes OâCallaghan because heâs a workhorse, heâs told me, the same way he liked Lewis Moody in 2005 â because of his work ethic.â
In 1997, the Lions took on the world champions as rank outsiders, but surprised them at home with clever tactics revolving around the use of small props (Tom Smith and Paul Wallace) to unsettle the Springboksâ greatest area of strength in the scrum; ferocious defence led by former rugby league stars such as Scott Gibbs and Alan Tait and the deadly goal-kicking of Neil Jenkins â the Wales out-half having been asked to slot in at full-back.
This time around, South Africa are again favourites and again world champions, but Telfer says it will be harder for the Lions than it was 12 years ago because South Africa have more quality to call on.
"The Lions can do it, but itâs going to be tougher than 1997 because the Springboks are stronger. Theyâve got a very strong first 15, whoever they play. Theyâve got three or four scrum-halves, three or four No 8s and Iâm not so sure the Lions have the same quality of player in the first 15 as 1997.
"That being said, we were very lucky with injuries on that tour. Weâd have been really screwed in the first two Tests if (out-half) Gregor Townsend had been injured; we had nobody else. Paul Grayson had gone home, Mike Catt had come from Argentina, but had a bit of catching up to do.
"But we had some outstanding individuals on that tour â Scott Gibbs, Jerry Guscott, Rob Howley, Ieuan Evans, Alan Tait â phenomenal players.
"We were playing some great rugby, in places like Western Province, Durban and we played a great game in Bloemfontain between the first and second Tests. The Cheetahs, as they are now, were the top province and we beat them by 40 points with our second team, Neil Back and those sort of guys.
"But South Africa werenât worried about that, they still thought their Test team was going to win and their confidence cost them in the first two Tests. After we beat them in the second Test in Durban, they changed their team completely and brought that big kicking guy (Jannie De Beer), but it was too late then.
âThere was always a feeling that weâd lose the third Test â which we did. We played reasonably well,but we were never going to win. But, anyway, it was too late for South Africa then, we had already won the series. We were always ahead of them in a tactical, street-wise way, they were always on the back foot especially after the first Test.â
Telfer is best known to younger rugby followers for his starring role on the âLiving With The Lionsâ video that came out after the 1997 tour. In particular, Telferâs speech to the forwards before the first Test which, in rugby circles, is as renowned Al Pacinoâs famous âinchesâ oration for âAny Given Sundayâ.
âTo win for the Lions in a Test match is the ultimate. They donât rate you. They donât respect you. The only way to be rated is to stick one on them,â said Telfer on that occasion.
The Scot wonât be present this time around but there are many similarities between the 1997 tour, where he made his mark so memorably, and this summerâs trip.
The Lions face a South African team high on the confidence of their status as world champions. They go in as underdogs with Ian McGeechan as coach and, if Telferâs prediction comes true, they may also have an indomitable lock-forward as their captain.
- hugh farrelly
I can see Telfers point but is that not a very amateurish stance? The game has moved on a lot in 12 years and I donât think the height of the captain or whether he is a hard bastard should make much of a difference? OâConnell might be a great guy to have as captain on the field but I donât think he would like all the other shite that goes with it.
In a weird way, it could be a blessing in disguise if neither OâConnell or OâDriscoll are selected as captain and it allows them to focus their attention on playing rather than all the rubbish that rugby captains have to put up with. Hardly likely to happen though.
Cookie makes some great points here, and I think when it comes to Geech, heâll pick a side to beat SA, not a side thats been playing the best rugby in the 6 Nations or the HEC.
I think its also worth pointing out, the biggst thing, is to get on the fucking plane. Once youâre there anything is possible. For this reason, I firmy believe DOC will partner POC in the second row, you can stick the house on it. Actually, anyone got odds for it, because its a certainty for me.
[quote=âMacâ]I can see Telfers point but is that not a very amateurish stance? The game has moved on a lot in 12 years and I donât think the height of the captain or whether he is a hard bastard should make much of a difference? OâConnell might be a great guy to have as captain on the field but I donât think he would like all the other shite that goes with it.
In a weird way, it could be a blessing in disguise if neither OâConnell or OâDriscoll are selected as captain and it allows them to focus their attention on playing rather than all the rubbish that rugby captains have to put up with. Hardly likely to happen though.[/quote]
Yea, he does have that rustic ring to it alright Mac, but he has Geechs ear, and if anyone knows what way Geechs piss is going to spray in the wind, its Telfer.
[quote=âmyboyblueâ]Cookie makes some great points here, and I think when it comes to Geech, heâll pick a side to beat SA, not a side thats been playing the best rugby in the 6 Nations or the HEC.
I think its also worth pointing out, the biggst thing, is to get on the fucking plane. Once youâre there anything is possible. For this reason, I firmy believe DOC will partner POC in the second row, you can stick the house on it. Actually, anyone got odds for it, because its a certainty for me.[/quote]
You could just back OâCallaghan to start at 5/1. Ferris at 9/4 is also a smashing price as Hangblaa said. I wonder what the chances of a complete outsider like Sean OâBrien getting a call up would be. Thereâs a hell of a lot of rugby to be played between now and June.