Liverpool - not 2009/10 but the next season after that

Torres and Gerrard are as good as there is :rolleyes: their best days are over and they are throwing in the towel now to get the manager sacked.

Joe Cole has ability to be a good five a side player, he had a decent 18 months or so at Chelsea when Mourinho cut the excesses from his game and he started delivering. Apart from that his career has been a disappointment - all flash and no substance, I see some England journos berating Capello for not bringing him on against Montenegro the other night, holy fuck he should be nowhere near the squad. Id have Dirk Kuyt on one leg ahead of him every time as at least he has a bit of heart. Yes I actually told you so, I think you were trying to figure out all the winning goals he had scored for England against decent teams under Sven the last time we discussed him.

I pointed out some time back that Carragher was finished - during Liverpool’s title run actually under Benitez. I remember that self absorbed clown fighting with Arbeloa near the end of that season when he fucked up. Benitez should have replaced him that summer.

Fair points, farmer. I’ve wanted Carragher out of the team for a long time now but neither Rafa nor Hodgson have had the balls to do it. I think Hodgson will go before Christmas tbh, hopefully to be replaced by a big name that will have the guts to get rid of him. Krygiakos has done well but I wouldn’t give him a starting place, I’d prefer to see if there’s any potential in a Skrtel/Agger partnership. I’m not sure either are up to it but think it’s the best option available at the moment.

I don’t think Poulsen is shit and would like to see if his partnership with Meireles can develop. Joe Cole has been hopeless thusfar but not easy to come into a team playing that bad. That said, I haven’t really seen much desire from him and swapping him for Benayoun is looking like poor business. It’s done now though I guess so we move on. As I’ve said before I’d like to see Johnson play further up the field which means we should be in the market for a right back, in the mean time try Kelly. Aurelio should play ahead of Konchesky but a left back is also a priority - why didn’t we get Salcido instead of Konchesky?

So many players short that it’s ridiculous. Other than backup for Torres I’d say a new back four is the priority.

In terms of squad, there are now at least 7 teams ahead of Liverpool I’d sa. God forbid anything happens to Gerrard.

How much of this is down to the managers tactics farmer ??

There is absolutley no pressure what so ever put on the opossition when they have the ball. Thats a basic in junior football never mind top flight.

Northampton, Blackpool etc have all out fought us this season… Say what you want about Benitez, but the work rate of his team was second to none, it’s the Liverpool way and work rate is not down to confidence, it comes from the top. With the frailties we have we cant afford to let teams dominate us the way they have done with possession. It’s fucking time to get ugly but I dont think Woy has it in him.

The lack of width is also killing us… I lost count of the amount of square balls played yesterday when we did venture into the final third…

Left back ---- No comment.

Have you actually watched any Liverpool matches this season? Obviously not. Gerrard has actually been trying his hardest to turn the team around. Torres’ poor form has been overblown by the media as he has been starved of service. There is no doubting their quality though. To say that they are trying to get the manager sacked is an incredible statement to make seeing as both of them could have left in the summer but decided to stay.

You said Carragher was finished in the title run season. He cleary wasn’t as if he was then they wouldn’t have been in a title run seeing as he is an ever present. It’s two years on now, he is two years older and yes he is not operating to the same standard.

Joe Cole is a quality player. I seem to recall you saying that he has never done it on the biggest stage when I pointed out his piece of class for the winning goal against United last season to give Chelsea the title. Yes, he can be frustrating but there is undoubted quality there for me which is seriously lacking in the team - we have enough players with heart.

I don’t know CM. I criticised Rafa for being too methodogical in his approach but, as you say, at least the team worked. That seems to be gone now. Liverpool are in a scrap and backs to the wall, ugly displays is what is required now.

I’m not aware of any serious bids made for either player during the summer. Are you?

Yes Carragher was in decline then, Benitez should have recognised that and replaced him that summer. He is an all out farce at this stage, spending more time on the ground than on his feet.

Joe Cole is shit. His one goal for Chelsea last season was an important one no doubt, but the other 80 or 90 goals they scored probably won more points :smiley:

The only positive at Liverpool was turning down Martyn ONeill OBE during the summer.

And what was this shit about at the final whistle?? I wantedto smack the cunt…

Yeah - noticed that. I notice that Lucas constantly seems to have a smile on his face as well. Useless fucker.

You mean to tell me that Torres couldn’t have left even if he wanted to?

Gerrard as well?

Do you not think that if either said they wanted to leave, there would be no takers?

Chelsea reportedly made a bid for Torres by the way.

Jay Spearing must be seriously gash unfortunately.

Lucas can’t pass, head, run, screen, control the ball, control the game, but you’d hope he could at least tackle. But he’s fucking useless at that too.

He can’t score either but maybe that is asking him to run before he can walk.

Well generally in these situations clubs bid for players. Players under contract cant just leave if they want to. For players like Gerrard and Torres - I dont think any Italian club would have the money and they arent good enough for Real or Barca. Find it hard to believe Chelsea made a bid in a summer where they made a conscious decision to cut the wage bill. Maybe City sniffed around but they were moving to 451 from a long way off and brought in Silva and Milner pretty early.

Guess they could have pushed for a transfer by going public ala Mascherano (but I’m sure his agent knew Inter and Barca were keen) but where would they get the money they are getting at the moment. Neither of them did well enough last season at club level or during the World Cup to warrant a multi million deal imo.

What was the team that hammered Real and United not too long ago. Some turnaround in players I reckon.

Roy Hodgson reckons Liverpool’s display in the Merseyside derby was the best of his tenure

Hansen’s recent article and brilliant reply by fan…

Liverpool have relied on two players too long and Fernando Torres is now going backwards

Hodgson has been in football long enough to know that he will carry the can for everything that has gone wrong with Liverpool’s start to the season.

Lying 19th in the Premier League, that is the nature of the game. The problem, though, runs deeper than that.

Sport on television Liverpool are paying the price for relying so heavily for so long on two men: Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres. For several years, they have turned to them to win games, to get them out of trouble. For years, they produced.

Suddenly, one of the two is proving ineffective.

It is Torres who is of concern. No player has ever become a superstar at Liverpool in such a short space of time. Yet he has gone from being a world-beater to the sort of striker any defender would relish marking. His game has always relied on pace and sharpness, and at the moment he has neither.

Like Wayne Rooney, he looks as though he has never seen a football before.

Hodgson is caught in a Catch 22, because the only way to help Torres recapture the form which terrorised the rest of the Premier League for so long is to offer him the playing time he needs.

Every time he plays, though, he looks worse, he loses a little bit more confidence and the problem becomes more entrenched.

There is an argument that Torres needs more help from his team-mates, but then he did not need that assistance three years ago, when he was more than capable of picking the ball up and comfortably beating three men.

His confidence is so low now, though, that every time he received possession yesterday, he looked to play it backwards. That is not the Fernando Torres of old.

Because he has effectively been removed from the equation, Liverpool now find themselves looking to Gerrard to win games on his own.

Though he has played better than all of his outfield team-mates this season, he can no longer drag the club along by the force of his own will. And yet there is nobody among the squad at Hodgson’s disposal prepared to stand up and offer something extra, something different, when they stand on the edge of the abyss.

There are too many players who look good when things are going well, but seem resigned to being poor when everything is not so perfect.

That has been coming for a long time. Hodgson inherited a squad with too many average players and four or five exceptional ones, but for so long had they been used to looking to the real top two that, when they are a shadow of their former selves, there is nobody to step into the breach.

This is largely the same Liverpool side who finished second just two years ago. True, Xabi Alonso and Javier Mascherano have left the club, but the overwhelming majority of players were there when Real Madrid and Manchester United were beaten comprehensively in successive games.

They still have internationals in every position, whether it is Joe Cole, who has been a regular in the England set-up for years, or Dirk Kuyt, who played in the World Cup final for Holland, while they have added Raul Meireles, who was exceptional for Portugal in South Africa.

But the difference between then and now is in their confidence as a collective unit.

Imagine going into the dressing room two years ago, when Torres and Gerrard were at their best, brimming with certainty that, while you had to play well, those two would do more than enough to win the game for you.

Now, you would look around and see Torres a million miles from his best, leaving Gerrard alone to make the difference.

It is up to others to step up to the plate. They have not done that for so long that you wonder who is capable of doing so.

It is to Hodgson that the task of turning that around falls, and how he goes about it is something only he can answer.

That is how he earns his corn. But what Liverpool need more than anything is to throw caution aside against Blackburn on Sunday and produce a performance to show the world that they are not finished.

Not only that, but a performance to prove to themselves that they cannot possibly be as bad as they currently are.

Reply…
Jocky, prick your ears up and listen…
Our ‘reliance’ on Gerrard and Torres is talked about as if they were doing us a massive favour. In reality, they are our two best paid employees and they WERE doing what they were paid to do. But to suggest that the rest of the team were unable to step up to the plate is a huge mark of disrespect to players like Kuyt, Alonso, Reina, Mascherano, and Benayoun, all of which took turns to be lauded by some of the top professionals in the World at various stages over the last two years. And Benayoun and Reina aside, all have played more World Cup games than you, and made more European appearances than you, so how about having a bit of respect?
Also, regarding the two-player thing, please tell me that the trophy winning years which you took part in were any different. Because if my memory serves me correctly, it was Kenny and Rushy scoring all the goals in the early years, and Beardsley, Barnes and Aldridge in the latter years.
You were also a footnote in the glory years of our club because other people were scoring all the goals. Is that an accurate portrayal of your contribution to the titles?
No, thought not.

Hodgson is not in a Catch 22 with Torres. That would suggest there is an equal chance of a downside as there is a chance of an upside. In reality, Torres is one of the top 3 strikers in the World, there is only an upside to a fit Torres in your team.
Unless, that is, your team tactics are so moribund, so bland, so formless, that you leave Torres isolated, with his back to goal, surrounded by 2 or 3 men, and with no support within 35 yards of him. As has been mentioned countless times on RAWK, our formation is not 4-4-1-1 but more akin to 4-4-1-----------------------1
What’s more, if we have an unfit Torres, then I’d like to remind Mr Hodgson that David Ngog is currently our top scorer.

Your description of our current squad is 4 or 5 exceptional players, and the rest are average.
Well, isn’t that typical of just about every top club in every country, with the exception of the monstrosities of City, Barca, and Madrid?
Drogba is exceptional, Alex is not.
Lampard is exceptional, Mikel is not.
etc
Rooney is exceptional, O Shea is not.
Nani is exceptional, Carrick is not.
etc

Has it not always been the case that top sides have been elevated by a small group of exceptional players to make that collective work?
Did Gary Gillespie really deserve equal billing with Kenny? Of course not, but he did his job.

I’m not alone in saying this Jocky, but your comments after the dismissal of Benitez were cowardly and below the belt.
Last year, with horrific injuries to Torres in particular, and a prolonged absence for Aquilani, Benitez laboured to a 7th place finish, 7 points off a Champions League place. We finished with 68 points from 38 games.
If Roy wants to emulate this perceived abject failure of a season (which led to the manager being sacked), then he has to find 60 points in the remaining 30 games left. Even if he does accomplish this difficult task, he would only retain parity with our nightmare season from last season, despite having a fraction of the injuries to accomodate.
Thouands of us were very vocal in our wish to keep Rafa, but media henchmen like you were keen to get rid and give it to Roy Hodgson.
At the very least, I would like a written apology for suggesting Roy was fit to manage Liverpool football club. Ideally, I want you to give up writing columns and sullying your fantastic reputation. The more you expose yourself, the sillier you sound. It’s much too late for Lawro now, he’s considered a laughing stock by much of the Liverpool support these days, especially so after reading his comments about punditry in his autobiography from years back.

Just bear in mind that there are people out there, like me, with time to pick through your shit and make you sound very, very stupid. And I won’t get tired of doing it every week if I need to. Ban me, and I grow another head, trust me.
Now just shut up and start behaving yourself.

that was a good reply but frank lampard is far from exceptional… he has been shite in 2 world cups and a european championship. and you would hardly know he was playing against inter milan last year… he nearly always disapears against the best teams on the big nights…a good player but far from exceptional…

That is a rubbish reply from your man.

Utter rubbish.

Some of the personal stuff is a bit ott, but I thought he made some valid points. There does seem to be an old boy attitude around the club. Ian St.John amongst others constantly lambasted Houllier… Rafa, as you know, had many detractors, with some of these hailing Roy as the the man to take the club forward. Where are they now ?? Blaming the players, the old regime, when it is clear the manager they called for is out of his depth.

Also, I think he makes a fair point in regards Torres…and the ridiculuous tactics being used… Fit or not, without service it doesn’t matter.

Lastly, Lawro is a cunt.

The problem I have with it, is that it is more of a rant that anything else. And it is very poorly constructed. It’s hard to see where he is actually addressing Hansen’s points but seems to be more interested in having a pop at him. Referring him to ‘Jocky’ in the opening line shows that it is going to be personalised and personalised debating is not the way to go.

I completely disagree with Hansen on two points:

  1. Torres is completely out of form (he almost seems to be suggesting dropping him ). He discounts the service point on the grounds that he was getting similar levels of service two years ago and was beating a couple of players. Bullshit - he had Alonso behind then who got on the ball and created. Now there is no operating midfield and the tendancy is to hoof it long. Torres is not at his best, but he is still by far the best option that we have, and is not getting the same service now as he was getting two years ago.

  2. They should open up and play without fear against Blackburn. No way - we need to get points, we need to tighten up and ground out results. Things aren’t suddenly going to click with an underperforming team if you tell them to go out and express themselves. Steadying the ship is what is needed now and results more than anything. You can coach teams to be tough to beat, you can’t necessarily coach teams to have attacking flair. You need gifted players for that and Liverpool don’t have them. It is about points now, nothing else.

Away from Hansen, I had a brief discussion with a mate today on the Liverpool situation. He, a Liverpool fan, could only point to the poor performance of Torres from the Everton match, and thought he should be dropped. It reminded me so much of the tendancy of auld lads in the GAA to get on the back of the best performer when he has a bad game and suggest dropping him - despite the fact that he is miles ahead of any other player ability wise, has delivered in spades in the past, and is more likely than anyone to deliver again. It must be a begrudgery thing or something - yeah you have been class for us but we can’t wait to cut you down to size once you fail to keep up to your high performance levels. Idiots - the lot of them.

[quote=“farmerinthecity, post: 471552”]
The problem I have with it, is that it is more of a rant that anything else. And it is very poorly constructed. It’s hard to see where he is actually addressing Hansen’s points but seems to be more interested in having a pop at him. Referring him to ‘Jocky’ in the opening line shows that it is going to be personalised and personalised debating is not the way to go.[/quote]

Fuck off you lanky cunt!

I tend to agree with you though. It’s a few cobbled together thoughts which are underminded completely by the first sentence and the intention is to offend not to debate.

Leaving aside the personal stuff, his points are very valid imo. Nani is not exceptional though.