If the champions of Manchester can beat Villa they will add the Premiership to their long list of silverware for a record 20th time. Normal service has been resumed, a testament to the sheer bloody-mindedness of SAF
Mullach Ide, I became a United fan during the Ron Atkinson years but looking at the bigger picture, this scale of dominance is a damning indictment of what English soccer has become. Tonight, will mark a 13th title in 21 seasons of the Premier League, 20 in total, back in 1993, the tally was 7 after 115 years. That’s a scale of domestic dominance over 21 seasons that neither Celtic or Rangers have been able to match. In fact, I think the only league in Europe that has been more one sided over that period is Olympiakos in Greece. And it could even have been more 1994/95, 2009/10 & 2011/12 were only lost on the last day of the season and championship winning leads were blown in 1991/92 & 1997/98.
How many teams realistically compete to win it now. Probably just 3, I’d say and Chelsea & Manchester City consistently shoot themselves in the foot with managerial music chairs. The four champion league places has seriously eroded competition. Arsenal look like finishing 3rd the 17th consecutive season under Wengers tenure they’ll have finished in Top 4 and qualified for champions league. Arsenal haven’t competed to win the league in nearly a decade and are now in the business of selling their best players like RVP to the clubs that are competing to win.
The hard work has been done now. Hopefully they can get the win tonight but knowing United a draw/defeat isnt out of the question. They always do things the hard way historically.
What are you on about? Man City were bought by their owners in 2008, Mark Hughes was already in situ from the previous owner and they got rid of him after a year and brough in Mancini who has been there for three and a half seasons
If Villa don’t get something out of this tonight they will end up in a right scrap with Wigan for relegation. They also play each other in the last match of the season.
And credit Mancini for doing so well there given the handicap of the dross he was left by that cunt.
RVP 
please see EPL thread
dungeon
[quote=“Wrigley Field, post: 762902, member: 1735”]Mullach Ide, I became a United fan during the Ron Atkinson years but looking at the bigger picture, this scale of dominance is a damning indictment of what English soccer has become. Tonight, will mark a 13th title in 21 seasons of the Premier League, 20 in total, back in 1993, the tally was 7 after 115 years. That’s a scale of domestic dominance over 21 seasons that neither Celtic or Rangers have been able to match. In fact, I think the only league in Europe that has been more one sided over that period is Olympiakos in Greece. And it could even have been more 1994/95, 2009/10 & 2011/12 were only lost on the last day of the season and championship winning leads were blown in 1991/92 & 1997/98.
How many teams realistically compete to win it now. Probably just 3, I’d say and Chelsea & Manchester City consistently shoot themselves in the foot with managerial music chairs. The four champion league places has seriously eroded competition. Arsenal look like finishing 3rd the 17th consecutive season under Wengers tenure they’ll have finished in Top 4 and qualified for champions league. Arsenal haven’t competed to win the league in nearly a decade and are now in the business of selling their best players like RVP to the clubs that are competing to win.[/quote]
Liverpool won 11 of their 18 titles between 1972 and 1990 so it is not a recent development for clubs to build a dynasty like this Wrigley. United have been lucky that their’s came in the age of Sky and obscene sums of money in the game and also is largely down to one man-the legend that is Sir Alex Ferguson-a gentleman to boot by all accounts.
The lack of competition has moved up a few notches though since the 70’s and 80’s. When you see a great old club like Arsenal acting as a feeder club, something is badly wrong. Arsenal have finished in the top 4 for something like 16/17 seasons in a row but they’re still reduced to selling their talismanic player of the last decade and last seasons player of the year Robert Van Persie to the all powerful Manchester United.
Ferguson is something of a flat track bully. He may dominate domestically but his European record is mediocre and compares unfavourably to some of the great British managers who have gone before. Lifting the European Cup twice in 19 attempts is a bad return and even at that the 2008 final was a drawn final where he got the Cup courtesy of the lottery system. Bob Paisley won the European Cup 3 times in 7 attempts and Brian Clough managed it twice in 4 attempts (and was denied a place in the 1973 final with Derby County courtesy of a corrupt Hungarian referee who was afterwards proven to be on the take in the semi final in Turin).
[quote=“Manuel Zelaya, post: 763157, member: 377”]The lack of competition has moved up a few notches though since the 70’s and 80’s. When you see a great old club like Arsenal acting as a feeder club, something is badly wrong. Arsenal have finished in the top 4 for something like 16/17 seasons in a row but they’re still reduced to selling their talismanic player of the last decade and last seasons player of the year Robert Van Persie to the all powerful Manchester United.
Ferguson is something of a flat track bully. He may dominate domestically but his European record is mediocre and compares unfavourably to some of the great British managers who have gone before. Lifting the European Cup twice in 19 attempts is a bad return and even at that the 2008 final was a drawn final where he got the Cup courtesy of the lottery system. Bob Paisley won the European Cup 3 times in 7 attempts and Brian Clough managed it twice in 4 attempts (and was denied a place in the 1973 final with Derby County courtesy of a corrupt Hungarian referee who was afterwards proven to be on the take in the semi final in Turin).[/quote]
good post mate
[quote=“Manuel Zelaya, post: 763157, member: 377”]The lack of competition has moved up a few notches though since the 70’s and 80’s. When you see a great old club like Arsenal acting as a feeder club, something is badly wrong. Arsenal have finished in the top 4 for something like 16/17 seasons in a row but they’re still reduced to selling their talismanic player of the last decade and last seasons player of the year Robert Van Persie to the all powerful Manchester United.
Ferguson is something of a flat track bully. He may dominate domestically but his European record is mediocre and compares unfavourably to some of the great British managers who have gone before. Lifting the European Cup twice in 19 attempts is a bad return and even at that the 2008 final was a drawn final where he got the Cup courtesy of the lottery system. Bob Paisley won the European Cup 3 times in 7 attempts and Brian Clough managed it twice in 4 attempts (and was denied a place in the 1973 final with Derby County courtesy of a corrupt Hungarian referee who was afterwards proven to be on the take in the semi final in Turin).[/quote]
Excellent post. Ferguson/utd been shown up in Europe time after time again. I was in the pub last night when this game finished and all the utd fans just got up and went home at the final whistle, no cheering, no dancing, no celebrations worthy of the name, their duller than the average KK fan, miserable cunts probably all be wearing munster jerseys come saturday
[quote=“Manuel Zelaya, post: 763157, member: 377”]The lack of competition has moved up a few notches though since the 70’s and 80’s. When you see a great old club like Arsenal acting as a feeder club, something is badly wrong. Arsenal have finished in the top 4 for something like 16/17 seasons in a row but they’re still reduced to selling their talismanic player of the last decade and last seasons player of the year Robert Van Persie to the all powerful Manchester United.
Ferguson is something of a flat track bully. He may dominate domestically but his European record is mediocre and compares unfavourably to some of the great British managers who have gone before. Lifting the European Cup twice in 19 attempts is a bad return and even at that the 2008 final was a drawn final where he got the Cup courtesy of the lottery system. Bob Paisley won the European Cup 3 times in 7 attempts and Brian Clough managed it twice in 4 attempts (and was denied a place in the 1973 final with Derby County courtesy of a corrupt Hungarian referee who was afterwards proven to be on the take in the semi final in Turin).[/quote]
I would agree that Ferguson’s record in Europe is not what it should be and I think United missed out on winning the CL in certain years due to bad tactics from Ferguson. However you have to look at the eras they played in also. United and the rest of English football were well behind the elite of Europe when they started playing in the CL due to some unpleasantness in Brussels. By the end of the decade, they had caught up and won the CL. You could argue that United should have won another before 2008 and I would say the years they were beaten by Porto and Leverkusen were there best shots but I think Madrid would have beaten United in 2002. Nobody could argue that United should have beaten Barca in either final they lost.
It is hard to argue the case in too many other years that United were better than the team that won it except 2005 of course when it is widely accepted that the worst team to ever win the CL won it through sickening typical Italian cowardice. You could also argue that wrapping up numerous league titles when up against the billions of City and Chelsea and with two pensioners in your midfield is a fair achievement when you look at the talent of the squads at Eastlands and Stamford Bridge.
Paisley’s record can’t be argued with neither can Clough’s but that was also an era when English clubs won 6 European Cups in a row-I can’t see that ever happening again-Villa won one for fuck sake.
In relation to Arsenal, every club goes through phases of ups and downs. United went 27 years without a title, Liverpool are 24 and counting, Huddersfield and Preston NE were once powerhouses in the game there.
[quote=“Horsebox, post: 763205, member: 1537”]I would agree that Ferguson’s record in Europe is not what it should be and I think United missed out on winning the CL in certain years due to bad tactics from Ferguson. However you have to look at the eras they played in also. United and the rest of English football were well behind the elite of Europe when they started playing in the CL due to some unpleasantness in Brussels. By the end of the decade, they had caught up and won the CL. You could argue that United should have won another before 2008 and I would say the years they were beaten by Porto and Leverkusen were there best shots but I think Madrid would have beaten United in 2002. Nobody could argue that United should have beaten Barca in either final they lost.
It is hard to argue the case in too many other years that United were better than the team that won it except 2005 of course when it is widely accepted that the worst team to ever win the CL won it through sickening typical Italian cowardice. You could also argue that wrapping up numerous league titles when up against the billions of City and Chelsea and with two pensioners in your midfield is a fair achievement when you look at the talent of the squads at Eastlands and Stamford Bridge.
[/quote]
There’s a lot more than that. United had better players than Dortmund in 1997 and Bayern in 2001 but Fergie was outwitted by Ottman Hitzfeld both years. 2010 then was an absolute calamity, the biggest missed opportunity of all. Got a priceless away goal in losing 2-1 in the first leg of the quarter final in Munich. 3-0 up in the return leg at Old Trafford and coasting and then Bayern scored twice to go through on away goals. If they’d got over Bayern, it was Lyons in the semi final and an average Inter Milan side in the final. They are three very black marks on Fergie’s European CV.
As you’ve said there’s Leverkusen in 2002 and Porto in 2004 not to mention some of the earlier exits 1993/94 to Galatasary and 1994/95 finishing bottom of a group containing Galatasary again and Gothenburg and Monaco in the quarter finals in 1998. These are all teams that United were stronger than but Fergie was outfoxed tactically. That’s an awful lot of years of underachievement.
Finishing bottom of a group containing Lille, Villareal & Benfica in 2005/06 and being eliminated by Basel & Benfica in 2011/12 not particularly clever either.
[quote=“Wrigley Field, post: 763236, member: 1735”]There’s a lot more than that. United had better players than Dortmund in 1997 and Bayern in 2001 but Fergie was outwitted by Ottman Hitzfeld both years. 2010 then was an absolute calamity, the biggest missed opportunity of all. Got a priceless away goal in losing 2-1 in the first leg of the quarter final in Munich. 3-0 up in the return leg at Old Trafford and coasting and then Bayern scored twice to go through on away goals. If they’d got over Bayern, it was Lyons in the semi final and an average Inter Milan side in the final. They are three very black marks on Fergie’s European CV.
As you’ve said there’s Leverkusen in 2002 and Porto in 2004 not to mention some of the earlier exits 1993/94 to Galatasary and 1994/95 finishing bottom of a group containing Galatasary again and Gothenburg and Monaco in the quarter finals in 1998. These are all teams that United were stronger than but Fergie was outfoxed tactically. That’s an awful lot of years of underachievement.
Finishing bottom of a group containing Lille, Villareal & Benfica in 2005/06 and being eliminated by Basel & Benfica in 2011/12 not particularly clever either.[/quote]
Yes I would agree with you on Bayern in 2010 alright but I think that Inter team under Mourinho would have beaten United-Mourinho has Fergie’s number for sure. That United team in 05/06 was a poor side as was the 11/12 side. That Ferguson had those teams competing for titles was nothing short of miraculous. As I said, his record in Europe is not that great but there are reasons for it and he has taken teams to 4 finals winning 2 and 3 semis so it is not as bad as it is made out to be. Compares quite poorly to Bob Paisley no doubt about it.
[quote=“Manuel Zelaya, post: 763157, member: 377”]
Ferguson is something of a flat track bully. He may dominate domestically but his European record is mediocre and compares unfavourably to some of the great British managers who have gone before. Lifting the European Cup twice in 19 attempts is a bad return and even at that the 2008 final was a drawn final where he got the Cup courtesy of the lottery system. [/quote]
Its actually 2 wins in 22 attempts. He had 3 attempts at it with Aberdeen as well. This is his full record:
ABERDEEN
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]1980/81 Second Round - Beaten 5-0 on aggregate by Liverpool[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]1984/85 Second Round - Beaten on penalties by Dynamo Berlin[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]1985/86 Quarter Final - Beaten by Gothenburg[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]MANCHESTER UNITED[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]1993/94 Second Round - Beaten by Galatasary[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]1994/95 Group Stages - Eliminated in a pool containing Barcelona, Gothenburg & Galatasary[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]1996/97 Semi Final - Beaten by Borrusia Dortmund[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]1997/98 Quarter Final - Beaten by Monaco[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]1998/99 Winners[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]1999/2000 Quarter Final - Beaten by Real Madrid[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]2000/01 Quarter Final - Beaten by Bayern Munich[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]2001/02 Semi Final - Beaten by Bayer Leverkusen[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]2002/03 Quarter Final - Beaten by Real Madrid[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]2003/04 Round of 16 - Beaten by Porto[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]2004/05 Round of 16 - Beaten by Milan[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]2005/06 Group Stages - Bottom of group containing Lille, Villareal, Benfica[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]2006/07 Semi Final - Beaten by Milan[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]2007/08 Winners[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]2008/09 Finalist - Beaten by Barcelona[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]2009/10 Quarter Final - Beaten by Bayern Munich[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]2010/11 Finalist - Beaten by Barcelona[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]2011/12 Group Stages - Eliminated by Benfica & Basel[/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=13px][FONT=arial]2012/13 Round of 16 - Beaten by Real Madrid[/FONT][/SIZE]