National Hurling League 2011

You want to put Kilkenny and Antrim in the same group? Tipp and Kerry? We are talking about 20-30 point hammerings here with no one watching. What will that do for the benefit of Antrim and Kerry? Add Westmeath, Down etc as well, these teams are miles off Kilkenny and getting hammered week in week out will not benefit them.

At the very least right now you have some form of balance in both divisions, with teams of similar quality playing each other. You even take that one good thing away with your system.

What might work better then the current system is to have the ten best teams in the country (division 1 currently plus clare/limerick) and splitting them into two groups of five with two up two down. But even then it won’t be a massive change.

Not disagreeing for the sake of it, but WTB you sound like one of the county managers moaning about structures. If Clare were in Div.1 you wouldn’t give a fuck, you are just bemoaning your own position. As Turenne says you’d only be creating more mismatches. Clare need to beat the teams at their own level first, then move on. I actually think it will benefit ye in the long run, it will build character.

speaking from a county who has had Div 2 experience, and who will again, it does nothing for them to be in Div 2, absolutley nothing. they pretty much spend the whole league wasting away playing meaningless games untuil the final. Carlow beat Wexford last year, but it meant fook all. they just plodded along in games and won what they had to to get to the final. this year, our cause was not helped by an inept manager who from day 1 had only one game he was preparing for and lost it, thus causing relegation. but had it been 2 down, maybe he wouold have actually tried to cause an upset in other games instead of resigning himself to losing them all and putting his eggs in the showdown with Offaly.

I see the logic in WTBs divisional plans, but they are pretty much going back to the way it was with the old Div1 a and b, which to be honest, I didnt see much wrong with, with the top teams in each group in finals, and bottom teams in relgation playoffs.

But there is a serious problem with ambition in some sides at the lower end of top grade hurling. Wexford are there not expecting to win games anymore, and only do enough to have morale boosting losses or beat teams that are worse than them. Instead of getting wins over teams ahead of them in the pecking order, they take defeat, and worse, they are taking them on regular occurances for the last 3 years.

Sorry to be crass, but tough shit. Thats a mentality of “we’re too good for this” and its half the reason ye are down there, not working hard enough.

There is fantastic ambition in some of the lower teams. Now in some cases they don’t get the support of their countymen or the CB, but there is some very committed teams down there.

Its laughable for Wexford and Clare men to be giving out about it when they are down there. Everyone knows the score when they start out. I’m not saying its perfect, but WTB’s suggestion is way off. If the likes of Carlow want to make the step up they have to beat the likes of Clare, Laois and Wexford, same as ye do.

There’s no Wexford men giving out about where we are. We know we’re shite at the moment and fully deserve to be going back to Division 2. Maybe you might be talking about WTB and just lumping us in with your argument just for the sake of it as usual.

yeah some of the lower teams again have good ambition. sure Carlow were delighted to beat Wexford in the league last year, and they are progressing well. But I’m talking of the likes of Wexford, Offaly, Limerick Clare and even Laois (who are way off now) lacking ambition, and like I said, I’m not blaming that on league or national structures, it s due to the ineptitude (certainly in Wexfords case) of poor management of club structures and underage structures within the county.

but you cant say Div 2 is good for those teams mentioned above. Wexford won games last year by huge margins without breaking a sweat, and Wexford are shite. Carlow pulled one over them, but as they were going to lose to others, it meant little to Wexford that they lost. I couldnt even tell you what the results are of this years div 2 games. the odd result I’d hear, like Laois losing away to Down at the weekend, but by and large, I have no interest because it will be Limerick and Clare in the final. Next year it will be Wexford and whoever loses this years Div 2 final. and the year after and so on. that is not a good way for a league to be. it does the likes of Carlow and Kerry well to be playing better teams, but they are still a bit away from competing consistently at that level. hurling has a problem in that gulfs between sides are very big.

at the moment, it is pretty much three tiered, with Wex, Clare, Lim, Offaly in the second tier, but they are still a distance ahead of the third string of Laois, Carlow, Kerry, Down, Antrim. The question is, who will bridge that gap first? Will the second tier get back to the first tier, or will the third tier start breaking into the second tier? Antrim have shown patched of making the breakthrough, without ever doing it consitently, and Carlow are moving along well. Laois are odd, they were therebaouts for a while, and have gotten worse. but unless things change for that middle group soon, they will be left aside in the long run.

Would it be accurate to summarise the problem as thus:
Current structure serves little value to the better teams in Div 2 (Lim and Clare this year)
Reverting to previous structure would serve little value to almost everyone else, since the top teams are now playing half as many games against the best sides, and the bottom teams would now be playing half as many teams that they would be capable of beating?

Change would serve to protect the likes of Wex, Offaly, Lim and Clare from relegation.

Whether it would speed up the process of regaining competitiveness is, imho, not what the main focus of a national competition should be. From our perspective, we are in Div 2 as a result of our own incompetence, on both the playing and administrative fronts. Fixing these issues won’t happen as a result of gerrymandering the League to guarantee Div 1 status.

Gman is from Wexford. He is saying that Div 2 is no good for them, he is also agreeing with Clare man WTB’s suggestions, which i disagree with. How hard do you find that to understand?

the only change should be two up two down instead of one up one down. at the moment it is too much to expect that a side like carlow or laoise would manage to get ahead of clare or limerick to reach the division 2 final and then beat the other one in the said final. its not going to happen

There’s fuck all benefit to the current system and it seems to be doing way more harm than good. The logic behind is that Laois, Carlow, and Antrim couldn’t compete consistently at the highest level and for more balance you needed a different split in the system. This was supposed to benefit the likes of those teams but after three years where’s the evidence that they have. The irony is the typically arrogant argument from the Cork lads is undemined by the very points that they are making.

The divisions were changed for precisely the purpose of helping these teams, that’s the reason they are the way they are now. And yet the two gimps are arguing that the structural changes have nothing to do with it and if you want to improve then you just have to do the groundwork. In that case there’s no justification for this system as it’s entire purpose is flawed to begin with.

As it happens they are wrong on both fronts. Lack of exposure to top level games does massively impact upon a team’s ability to prepare. As I’ve said, Clare and Limerick won’t meet a team that has the remotest chance of winning the Munster or Leinster championship until the championship itself. The three sides I’ve referred to don’t appear to be much better off than they were three years ago either, and Laois appear to be in complete turmoil, so again you have to explain what the benefit is that justifies the system. Where is it?

Turenne talks about nobody wanting to see certain matches, and that the current system provides more attractive fixtures on that front. Well nobody’s going to watch them so that doesn’t hold up either. In fact, even in the fairly dull inter-county scene of the early noughties you were getting much higher average attendances under the old 1A and 1B system.

Another point that seems to escape ye is that even if Clare and Limerick ‘step up’ as Kev so helpfully points out, you’re always condemning some teams to this nightmare situation. Maybe in five years it’ll be Waterford and Dublin. But maybe not, maybe it’ll still be Clare and Limerick or Wexford. Regardless of how much work they do, some teams are going to have to be there. And the likes of Laois can go on with 12 people showing up for training. Maybe Christy Cooney can drop by and explain to them how much benefit they system is providing them. Because the evidence doesn’t seem to exist anywhere outside of his head.

Not everyone can play in Division 1 though. All this moaning that Div2 is no good for them but Div1 is going to be no better because they will be beat out of the park but most teams there. Maybe if these teams actually took the league seriously stopped moaning about it then maybe the would improve enough to be in Div 1 or if they had off put the effort in in the first place they wouldn’t have been relegated from Div 1. There is a bit of snobbery from some counties when it comes to hurling and they feel they should have a divine right to play in Division 1 regardless of how shit they are and to hold other teams trying to improve, trying to get competitive back.

If you take a look at Dublin, only in the last few years when they finally started focusing on Hurling and improving the under age teams have they been able to now compete and judging by yesterdays result they still have a bit to go to get right into the mix to win things. Maybe if other counties stopped their poxy moaning and snobbery and actually put in some work developing their teams then maybe they wouldn’t be were they are.

I agree 100% with this and I include many of my own county men in that. A lot of people at home seem to think that the GAA should be doing all they can to help Wexford but our own County Board have made such a mess of things over the last 15 years that we’re not entitled to anything more than we have received. If we can’t sort our own house out then we don’t deserve to be going cap in hand to the GAA asking them to change the league structures to help us. You could argue that Clare and Limerick were relegated in seasons where there was huge managerial problems and county board mismanagement too but that’s not the fault of Offaly or Dublin.

The current structures have their problems but it’s up to us to try and sort out the mess we’re in rather than hoping the GAA will bail us out. It should have been a warning to us back a few years ago when we were facing relegation from the Liam McCarthy altogether but the only thing we’ve done since then is sit around assuming that by changing nothing things will improve. I couldn’t give a rattling fuck what they do with the league structures for the next few years as we’ll do well to get out of division 2 anytime soon until the current administration and management team have been changed.

Thats the nature of it though, it happens in GAA all over the country. Carlow and Laois don’t get to play anyone either of that standard.

And it is nothing more than coincidence that me and Turenne are arguing against it and are from Cork, people from Wexford & Limerick agree and they are in the same position as ye. I’m absolutely certain if ye get promoted ye won’t be on about it next year.

So what if Waterford & Dublin go down? That will be because they lost more games than the other teams.

Its sport WTB, there is winners and losers.

+1

Alot of sense Mac.

Funny thing is, Clare have got their act together, it just takes time to bear fruit at Senior.

Turenne - People seem to be very positive about Cork and how the team is progressing. I know your a half empty type of guy, are the positives from yesterday realistic? You would have seen more of the hurlers than me.

Its being suggested McDonnell, Egan, O’ Farrell and Cian Mac all could make their debuts in May, and Pa Cronin is nailed on midfield now. What you think?

[quote=“Watch The Break, post: 557249”]
There’s fuck all benefit to the current system and it seems to be doing way more harm than good. The logic behind is that Laois, Carlow, and Antrim couldn’t compete consistently at the highest level and for more balance you needed a different split in the system. This was supposed to benefit the likes of those teams but after three years where’s the evidence that they have. The irony is the typically arrogant argument from the Cork lads is undemined by the very points that they are making. [/quote]
3 years is a relatively short time in which to judge an experiment of this nature.

The divisions were changed for precisely the purpose of helping these teams, that’s the reason they are the way they are now. And yet the two gimps are arguing that the structural changes have nothing to do with it and if you want to improve then you just have to do the groundwork. In that case there’s no justification for this system as it’s entire purpose is flawed to begin with.

strawman argument. just because underage work is far more important to senior success doesn’t mean you can come up with any league format you choose. again, it’s a bit early to be deciding that the current structure has failed.

As it happens they are wrong on both fronts. Lack of exposure to top level games does massively impact upon a team’s ability to prepare. As I’ve said, Clare and Limerick won’t meet a team that has the remotest chance of winning the Munster or Leinster championship until the championship itself. The three sides I’ve referred to don’t appear to be much better off than they were three years ago either, and Laois appear to be in complete turmoil, so again you have to explain what the benefit is that justifies the system. Where is it?

laois had their best year last year in quite a while. it would seem rigney had more to do with it than anything else, mbb could i’m sure fill us in on the details. div 2 looks like it’s about the place for them for now. hammerings aren’t going to improve the situation.

Turenne talks about nobody wanting to see certain matches, and that the current system provides more attractive fixtures on that front. Well nobody’s going to watch them so that doesn’t hold up either. In fact, even in the fairly dull inter-county scene of the early noughties you were getting much higher average attendances under the old 1A and 1B system.
that also holds true for championship matches now vs the nineties / early noughties. absolutely no evidence to suggest that the league format is the sole cause (or even a contributing factor) of falling attendances.

Another point that seems to escape ye is that even if Clare and Limerick ‘step up’ as Kev so helpfully points out, you’re always condemning some teams to this nightmare situation. Maybe in five years it’ll be Waterford and Dublin. But maybe not, maybe it’ll still be Clare and Limerick or Wexford. Regardless of how much work they do, some teams are going to have to be there. And the likes of Laois can go on with 12 people showing up for training. Maybe Christy Cooney can drop by and explain to them how much benefit they system is providing them. Because the evidence doesn’t seem to exist anywhere outside of his head.

Laois haven’t been relegated since the new format was adopted, so relegation has no bearing on how many senior hurlers decide to tog out at training. as you say, someone will always be relegated, that’s the whole point of playing a league competition. the worst team goes down, the best of the rest takes their place, for at least one season.
there’s no evidence to suggest that the “weaker” counties are suffering under the current format.
there’s certainly some evidence to suggest that for the counties who were relegated, relegation was a symptom rather than a cause of their woes. being cosseted in an expanded league structure would mask these deficiencies to some extent, surfacing only on championship days. deficiencies that are then harder to spot, and easier to dismiss as an aberration or a dodgy refereeing decision.

your basic argument is that clare (and limerick, presumably) are at a disadvantage going into the championship due to div 2 status. your remedy for this is to expand the league structure to a 14 team top division, in a sport where barely that many counties take the game seriously.

if ye beat us in the div 2 final, presumably the presence of offaly next year in div 1 to preserve clare’s top flight status would serve equally well for your purposes? 7 top flight games, few mismatches, a better chance of playing at close to championship pace and no weekend wasted on meaningless inter-county matches at the expense of club games.
carlow, laois and down get to see if they’re better than wexford.
all your objectives are then met under the current format. the only problem is the onus on ye not to get relegated again.

the cynic in me is considering the possibility that the problem with the current format is the winner takes all game at the end of the year. although there are advantages to a game resembling championship intensity and status at that time of year. would you protest so vociferously had ye won that game?

I am trying to find some sympathy for WTBs arguement here but I can’t. Any league without the relegation factor is pointless and unworthy of even being described as a league. A lot of lads from Clare share WTBs opinion but they will forget such views as soon as Daly takes over again and brings them back to Div 1 and being competitive in Munster again. The flipside of the demoralization the likes of Clare must be feeling is balanced by the genuine progress the likes of Carlow are making.

The issue in Laois isnt the system, its the set up. Chronic disappointment and apathy to Fennelly and his approach. The year has basically been written off due to the shambolic nature of the training. Shocking pity given the progress made by Rigney when in charge, the next appt was crucial, seems like this wasn’t the way to go.

Cracking post Mac good lad yourself.

My basic argument is that none of the justifications for the current system are being borne out as benefits to the game and as such the current system seems to have serious setbacks and no advantages. You’re saying it’s too soon. Well it’s not too soon to see the harm it’s doing.

I haven’t at any stage argued that the league is the sole cause of the problems in counties like Clare, Limerick, and Wexford, and it is fairly obvious that the only reason this is being repeatedly raised is that people are all too aware that the present system as opposed to the traditional one is impossible to justify. The notion that two of the traditionally counties as well as Antrim, Carlow, and Laois are better served by the current system is impossible to demonstrate because it is not true. That won’t change no matter how much people think teams deserve to be there.

The traditional system was changed to the current one on the basis of arguments I’ve repeatedly dealt with. If anyone here can argue that the current format has made the league (1) more attractive to the public, or (2) better for the development of hurling, then I invite you to do so.

Very hard to tell. Firstly the management, even though one cannot doubt their effort, make too many mistakes and most importantly seem unable to get the team playing the way they want them to play. We’ve probably got close enough to the best players in the squad in the county but we badly lack any kind of physical presence in the inside forwards and we lack consistent free-takers. These two things alone seem beyond the maangement to solve and will hold us back hugely against the likes of KK and Tipp even if we dominate in the half-back line and in midfield. We lack another half-forward and the Mcloughlin/Cronin partnership come championship could be inexperienced and lightweight, even if its the best we have. All in all I think we are slowly getting better but still lots of problems.