Official All Ireland Senior Football Championship 2011 Thread

Sport
41

Agree with you on Armagh.

Funny enough I know Dublin people moan about our midfield being lightweight and I did too after Sunday but I watched the game back on the replay the other night and Dublin actually had the better of midfield. Midfield is a team effort these days really and it’s no use to just focus on numbers 8 and 9. 10, 12, 5 and 7 are nearly as important and Dublin are pretty good at getting possession from those areas. You can win an All-Ireland without a big midfield. Tyrone proved it.

Yes, its not all about big midfield, i won’t argue there, but it helps. Tyrone though had hughes, who in his prime was a really really good “Footballer”, Bastick isn’t and hasn’t the brain of Hughes. McAuley is a good player but he can’t do what he does for 70 mins, so thats why depth is huge, and this is not what Dublin have. You can point to Tyrone as having a system and not being the biggest, but they were brilliant footballers and had come from a huge culture of winning at underage. Totally different to Dublin (except the new players who have an All-Ireland but are not featuring). You can only win without size if you have brains at this level.

8 & 9 is still the engine though Sid, and of incalcuable importance to any Gaelic Football team, systems or no systems.

Dublin’s problem more than anything is in the head and the League final was the nadir in that regard. Not enough leadership. It was a choke which wasn’t helped by one or two bizarre sideline decisions. They let Cork run at them and stood off far too much thinking that the blanket would crowd them out and neglected to actually mark up properly. It was like a game of pass the parcel in Dublin’s defence in the last 20 minutes.

But what are they to do, Cork are just to good for Dublins system. They have to get more scoring forwards themselves (signs they are heading somewhat in that direction although i wouldn’t be getting carried away with scoring off Miskella at No.6). If they attack the Cork players (big powerful runners) they foul them on the 2nd & 3rd tackles and its almost impossible not to. If they don’t foul them Cork kick points for fun. Sheehan, Goulding & Donnacha O’ Connor are all regularly scoring from both feet which makes it even harder. Its back the pitch where Dublin fail more than anything late in games, the forwards get lazy and Cork get the chance to build up a head of steam and create the decisions i spoke about above.

I think had Dublin played closer to a normal system and maintained some more attacking sense Cork wouldn’t have scored much more, in fact possibly less.

The inability to hang onto a lead is pathological now in Dublin football. Look back at most big matches Dublin have been involved in over the last 20 years and you see it. It goes back to Meath in 1991 for me.

Add in:
Derry 1993
Tyrone 1995 (nearly blew it)
Meath 1996
Kildare 2000
Armagh 2002Armagh 2003
Tyrone draw 2005
Mayo 2006
Cork 2010
Cork 2011 League final
Mayo 2011 League
Galway 2011 league

In all of those matches Dublin had leads and blew them. These patterns tend to perpteuate themselves in counties. There are loads of teams out there who are playing against historical baggage as much as against their opponents. Until Dublin struggle over the line and win an All-Ireland this will be a problem.

I have bolded where i think they weren’t the better team anyway, and i don’t believe they blew it/and or it was more to do with the other team being just as good if not better.

Yes Kev, I’m Kevin Myers, hence my weird views.

Thought as much. Never agreed with Myres on Football.

42

I don’t rate Bastick alright but I’d still maintain that Dublin as a whole more than held their own in the midfield on Sunday.

Dublin’s forwards were poor defensively alright and every time Cork got the ball they knew they could walk it almost into Dublin’s half which effectively made it 12 man attack v 12 man defence. It was at that point where it became apparent that Dublin’s defence still need more time to get to grips with this defensive system. When the pressure came on panic began to set in and a lot of them didn’t know what to do. Cork’s speed, movement and physicality began to seriously exert itself against a static defence, particularly with the likes of Pearse O’Neill and Paddy McCourt, sorry Denis O’Sullivan rampaging through. Every Cork player began to think two seconds ahead of their opponent. All this wasn’t helped by the forwards making fools of themselves at the other end by missing easy chances. Every chance missed was like another weight on top of the whole team and more encoragement for Cork. All this also shows that Dublin don’t have enough strength in depth in the forwards and it shows how vital the two Brogans, Cullen and Connolly are because Dean Kelly and Paddy Andrews aren’t up to it.

After a few days of considering Sunday I wouldn’t be quite as downcast as I was because there were six or seven likely championship starters who were not on the pitch for the last 15 minutes. You’re correct though that the lack of depth was shown up in that period. Gilroy in fairness has tried to address that lack of depth but a squad with Cork’s depth takes time to develop. It certainly took Cork time.

Paradoxically, things can change quickly. It was only last July and August that people were saying that there was no way Cork would win an All-Ireland after their poor perfomances against Limerick and Roscommon and saying Counihan was mismanaging them and now everybody thinks they’re world beaters. And it wasn’t so long since everybody in Dublin including myself was calling for the head of Gilroy. There’s a ton of football to be played between now and August, some teams and players will lose form, some will get injured and some teams and players will emerge.

The championship - ah lovely.

43

Knew you weren’t a true Dub Sid. Championship? Championship me hole, “Champo” or nowt.

44

With the increasing middle class-isation of Dublin GAA it’s now “the Champers” dahling.

Well maybe not.

45

I blame Tommy Lyons.

46

Was it not always that way? 70s team wouldn’t have been exactly full of dockers and binmen

47

I blame the death of RUF as shown by the decline of the traditional Dublin fee paying schools and the rise of the traditional strong farmer class and Munster teams in the Leinster Schools Cup. Chaps who previously would have aspired to be the next Ross O’Carroll-Kelly are now aspiring to be the next Ross O’Carroll, they’re now aspiring to play sport.

48

I agree with bits and pieces and disagree with bits. But the one thing that can’t be forgotten, Cork would not have won without the emergence of Sheehan & Walsh and to a lesser extent CIT’s Sigerson win. The 2 lads brought obvious ability, but also gave older lads a boost. The CIT win was a massive boost to Cork football in general. More or less a Cork team beating big names and teams. The Cork team as they were trudging along with out these 2 things would not have won last year.

Dublin need a similar boost, thats my main point. This bunch can’t develop that much more in their present giuse IMO. Like Noel O’ Leary, Pierce O’ Neill, Graham canty, Shields, Alan O’ Connor, Nick Murphy are not that much better footballers now or last year than they were in 09. But Goulding, Kerrigan & O’ Connor starting scoring more, Kelly became a main man and the 2 young lads brought another dimension. Similarly i can’t see Brogan being much better than he is now (its probably not possible), brennan, Cahill, Alan Brogan and a few others are as good as they are going to be. They need new blood.

49

Yeah the 70’s team contained the likes of Robbie Kelleher (Celtic Tiger cheerleader economist) Pat O’Neill (doctor), David Hickey (surgeon), Tony Hanahoe(architect I think), even Kevin Moran (accountant) if he hadn’t gone to Man Utd.

The 80’s and 90’s teams had quite a working class bias and had a lot of players from places like Finglas and Tallaght - clubs like Erin’s Isle and Thomas Davis which were very heavily represented back then aren’t mapped now. Players like Keith Barr, Mick Deegan, Charlie Redmond, PaulCurran, Eamon Heery, Vinnie Murphy, Joe McNally, Dave Foran, Paul Clarke, etc were all solid working class.You don’t really get players like that now. Perhaps TASE can explain why Thomas Davis have declined.

Dublin have more of a team of chaps now than a team of lads, well obvously that’s an exaggeration but look at where the top clubs now are based. It’s Kilmacud, Ballyboden, Castleknock. I think the changing demographics of the team reflected the changing demographics of the city as a whole.

50

Oh how I wish we had a few of those lads around now. Reading Dessie Farrells book, they seemed to have a good spirit as well in that squad, with all the jokers that were in it.

Its hard to think that the clubs like Erin’s Isle, Thomas Davis, maybe to lesser extent Na Fianna have all declined and the clubs like Boden, crokes, vincents and plunketts have all come to the fore now.

51

Cork have the right mix of youth and experience at this moment. They have a lot of players around the 30 mark which would lead me to believe their period at the top may not be as long as some think. The likes of Canty, O’Connor, Murphy, Miskella, O’Leary, Kissane, O’Neill etc are all pushing 30 or over and won’t be around in 2 or 3 years time. Cork’s introduction of younger players over the last couple of years has pushed them onto the next level for now but that’s half a team that won’t be there in 2 or 3 years and there’s no guarantee that what’s coming through will fulfil its potential in the way you envisage. Cork had good underage teams coming through in the early 90’s which should have complemented their experienced backbone of All-Ireland winners then but it didn’t happen. I’d stick to my statement last week that Dublin are around about where Cork were this time two years ago - ie two or three players short and with a whole load of questions about their bottle hanging over them.

52

Were Vincents not always a force?

53

Nah they went through a few lean years there where they were not winning much. They were always a huge club and always had good players but from 1984 till 2002 Vincents didn’t contest a senior football championship final. In those years you are looking at Thomas Davis dominating for a couple of years with Erin’s Isle, Crokes and Ballymun always challenging, then in the late 90’s early 2000 you have Na Fianna dominating. From then on Crokes have been the dominant team, followed by Vincents and Ballyboden. Plunketts for all the good players they have in the last few years have only contested one Dublin Senior Football championship final in 2008 and lost that to Crokes.

54

Vincent’s were always the dominant force going back to the 50’s. I think Dublin once fielded a team in the 50’s with 14 Vincent’s players, the only exception being the goalkeeper who was a former Vincent’s member. They decined in the late 80’s and for the whole of the 90’s but strengthened again in recent years. They still have an influence within Dublin GAA that no other club has hence why Whelan was made manager and now Gilroy.

55

Yeah that influence is really noted at board level where a lot of decisions go in Vincents favour towards the rescheduling of games that a lot of other clubs don’t get. Always remembered never minding going to play Vincents in the 90’s because their set up was excellent. Their pitches were always in fantastic nick, grass cut, pitches marked, nets up, great dressing rooms the works and then you would go to other teams and you would hate it. Remember one year playing Setanta on a freezing wet sunday morning in November and having to get changed in entrance to one of the flat complexes in Ballymun at the time and the pitch being in rag order because there had been a bonfire on it a week or two earlier and there was nothing but dog shit and broken glass all over the place, couldn’t wait for that game to end. :frowning:

56

You think that’s bad, my U-14 hurling team once had to get changed in a brothel in James Connolly Tower, some of the team lost their virginity after that match, a whole generation of future Dublin hurlers was lost, bit like the current camogie carry on in reverse :o :smiley:

57

Do you really want me to go through the team on sundays age profile.

I think you are way off there. Canty and Murphy have been important, but what Murphy is doing he could do for a good while. I think from a footballing point of vuew Cork have already replaced Canty. Half backs is something we are not lacking.

I really don’t think though this Dublin team are where Cork were in 08-09.

The team Sunday;

Ken O’Halloran (23); Ray Carey(24), Michael Shields(25), Jamie O’Sullivan(22); Noel O’Leary(30), John Miskella(32), Paudie Kissane(29); Alan O’Connor(26), Paul Kerrigan(23); Pearse O’Neill(29), Patrick Kelly(24), Fintan Gould(25); Daniel Goulding(24), Donncha O’Connor(29), Ciaran Sheehan(20).

Average age = 25.6. Subs came on were 23, 21, 22, 22. :stuck_out_tongue:

58

Kev, I know you’re a proud Corkman and all that because of your team, but you aren’t that far ahead of everyone else.

How am I way off? I’m just pointing out the ages of those players. O’Connor is only 26? Thought he was older but OK, the rest of the players I mentioned are not exactly young.

Where were Cork in 08-09? Competing well, had just been in an All-Ireland semi-final where they lost to Kerry in a replay by 3 but could have won, probably 2 or 3 players short. Dublin lost a semi-final they could have won by a point, probably 2 or 3 players short, with a backbone of experienced players not that different to what Cork have. Also a few players who should come in over the next couple of years off good underage teams such as the 09 minors and last years under 21’s.

Kev, I know you’re a proud Corkman and all that because of your team, but you aren’t that far ahead.

Would you accept that if even some of the following players had been on the pitch for the last15 minutes on Siunday they might have made a difference:
Rory O’Carroll
Bernard Brogan
Alan Brogan
Diarmuid Connolly
Brian Cullen
Cian O’Sullivan

Throw in Fennell, McConnell and Magee (granted I don’t rate the last two that highly but they have some role to play), would you agree we’re not that far off?

59

I accept the bolded would and Cian O’ Sullivan in time. Cullen fades out of games alot near the end, Connolly i wouldn’t have 100% trust in yet/maybe never. Even the night he got the hat trick in the league he did so much absolutely mindless stuff it was untrue. Thing is Sid its a 25 man game now, you need 10 subs up to the grade, and you are absolutely certain to be missing players these days they train so much. Dublin are not that far off, i just don’t see the guys coming through, but thats not saying they won’t come through. Cork had very clear stars coming in Colm O’ Neill, Sheehan & Walsh. I like Murray and O’ Sullivan, but they are defenders really. The Dublin system won’t win an All-Ireland, relying on Bernard Brogan alone won’t win an All-Ireland. He made both goals the last day with brilliance. Cork can lose Donnacha O’ Connor, Pierce O’ Neill and Kerrigan and still win an All-Ireland. Kerry for instance can’t lose anyone at this stage, as proved last year.

I don’t think Cork at present with the players available (last sunday) are that far ahead, but look at this list that Cork didn’t have in those last 15. Thats what puts them further out in front.

Graham Canty
Anthony Lynch
John Miskella
Fintan Gould
Paul Kerrigan
Eoin Cadogan
Colm O’ Neill
Aidan Walsh
Sean Kiely

I’m not saying the Dubs won’t win an All-Ireland in next few years, but i don’t see it yet, maybe by the end of the year i’ll have changed my mind.

And Sid, i like Dublin football, i liked the 95 team, i loved the 83 team and since Pillar fucked off i have taken to this team in a big way. As honest a bunch as there is out there. If i was told now there is no way Cork can win the All-Ireland i’d be going for the the Dubs. I just wouldn’t be putting any money on them for a long time i feel.

60

I after reading on Hoganstand Tommy Freeman is off the US and won’t be playing for Monaghan this summer. A huge loss for them.

Or to put it a lĂĄ MBB

I’m hearing that Tommy Freeman is going to the US, can anyone confirm if my sources are correct?