Our Nation's Leader

21

But it’s a government appointed tribunal into planning matters and payments - literally set up by the government themselves to investigate alleged corruption. The Taoiseach has been implicated in the process and has given a series of conflicting and misleading public comments / explanations and now he’s attempting to evade certain aspects of the investigation.

I expect completely impeccable standards of office from the leader of my country yet he’s now refusing to work with transparency hand in hand with a government appointed tribunal and is taking legal action to avoid having to do so even though he’s the leader of the country. I find that both amazing and appalling and I also find his behaviour far more embarrassing and despicable than any hounding he’s experiencing. What does he have to hide here? If he’s not corrupt then why doesn’t he provide us with viable explanations instead of seeking to identify legal loopholes that will enable him to evade the Tribunal?

If he didn’t stop changing his stories and made one single, credible statement then it wouldn’t invite so much continual questioning and the fact that he’s Taoiseach should in no way preclude him from being brought to task for abuse of power. The whole thing sickens me from his own behaviour to that of his government colleagues who stand idly by and accept it.

Corruption traditionally does indeed come with power and it’s obvious a cozy cartel of corruption existed, or even still exists, up to the very top of Irish society. I don’t think we should accept that just because it’s always been that way. Hopefully this process will ultimately punish those who’ve benefited illegally and also act as a deterrent for anyone thinking of doing so in the future.

22

[quote=“Jugs”]We live in a democracy, the people have voted for their leader fully aware of what he has / has apparently done. If he’s voted out by those same people because of any kind of corruption then fair enough. Are you suggesting that the people (a very large % of our population) are corrupt too because they vote for FF or just clueless because they don’t put down the paper every morning and go demonstrate outside the Dail? If you’re bringing irrelevant non politicians into it, should a footballer be expelled from the league for diving? People have different priorities in a politician (not talking developers here). Not everyone is hell bent on having the perfect leader, some people like it when the country is doing well and see the good outweighing the bad in Bertie/FF - it’s their choice. There are pros and cons with everything in life and it a matter of personal choice how you weigh them up.

Can we have a thread on this forum where your personal hatred of the Sindo doesn’t somehow get brought into the argument? I think having a full thread devoted to it is enough.
The media has a right to report on things like Mahon and express opinions as the majority do in a negative manner towards Bertie yet you slate the Sindo (which i don’t read) for exercising its right to an opinion and to report in a certain way.

Are you and your friends happy to use those sports facilities or do you refrain in order to register your disapproval at how/why they were built?

Regarding last paragraph, i never argued that his achievements made any wrondoing redundant, i choose to place greater emphasis on issues that are more important to me, as is my right, as is the right of all those who vote for Bertie and put him in power and i would be embarrassed to be in a foreign country and have to explain to someone why our elected leader has been hounded for the past number of years with no single charge being brought against him.[/quote]

I don’t know why so many people voted for Bertie but I suspect that both clueless and corrupt come into it for a fair amount of them. There’s also a whole raft of gobshites who vote for who their parents voted for. Obviously they have their opinion, but in this wonderful democracy I’m allowed to tell them how brainless it is.

Footballers are supposed to be suspended from the league for diving. Those are the rules of football though, they’re not laws. If a footballer took bribes then I’d expect him to go to jail and I’d expect him to serve a lengthy ban from football. If a politician does the same then I expect the same results. Similarly if a jockey (let’s use Lester Piggott as an example) hides his revenue from the taxman and gets caught then I expect him to do time in jail. Same deal for a politician. You seem to have this fanciful notion that for politicians you can allow the good to outweigh the bad and so these minor indisgressions such as perjury, soliciting bribery, reneging on taxes etc. are all trivial because our country is going well. I’d love to hide my earnings from the taxman and then when Revenue come knocking I’d tell them it’s all grand because my company are doing very well at the moment.

So those are the reasons why Bertie isn’t, or shouldn’t be, above the law. The other part is to do with why we keep electing the prick and as I said above I don’t know the answer other than that there’s a hell of a lot of selfish and foolish pricks in this country. I find that embarrassing to be honest and I think that’s the thrust of Bandage’s original post.

Re the Sindo, it was yu who brought up the “disproportionate media time,” the “constant hounding,” “invasive,” “permanently hounded about personal affairs.” You complained about the media’s treatment of Bertie in four separate posts before I even got involved on this thread - all I did was point out the actual facts, not the FF version of events.

On the sports facilities I have used them all. Why wouldn’t I? I did protest about the rezoning though.

I too would be embarrassed (and have been) to be in a foreign country and explain how we know all this stuff about Bertie but that he’s still holding the highest office in the land. It reflects horribly on this sceptered isle of ours.

23

Much of the reason why Fianna Fail are voted back into power again and again is the perceived uselessness of the opposition. So let’s not crucify everyone that votes for Fianna Fail. It’s like a football manager faced with a decision to play Kuyt or Voronin? You have to pick someone so you pick Kuyt just so that that useless prick Voronin doesn’t play.

Moral highgrounds are all wonderful but its time to get some grounding in reality. John Ellis, a corrupt politician (I accept) has done some wonderful work for the county of Leitrim over his twenty plus year Dail term. In fact, Carrick on Shannon is one of the most booming towns in Ireland at the moment (considering where it once was) and that is due in no small part to Mr Ellis. He succeeded in bringing MBNA to Carrick and employing some 1,000 people. As a nuts and bolts politican the man did a very good job. Also he was the only Leitrim based politican to vote for apart from Sinn Fein who I will never vote for. That was why I would have voted for him in the last election (I didn’t because I did not see why I should have put myself out by running down home on a Thursday because FF deliberately had it on that day so that a certain proportion of the people wouldn’t vote).

But that brings me to Fianna Fail. Again this idea of slating everyone for voting for them is extremely unfair. FF are in every town and village in the country. People will vote for them. They have a hardcore support and they always will. There’s no point saying that half the people are stupid as there are many people in the same situation as me with John Ellis above. They are voting mainly for the politican, the majority of them have no idea of Fianna Fail’s policies. He always did a good job for the area so why should they get rid of him. In your case in Fingal or North County Dublin or whatever t’fuck you want to call it Fianna Fail politicans performed woefully. It is easy for you to slate them then.

Fianna Fail as an organisation are rotten to the core though. I already mentioned the whole situation of putting the elction on a Thursday so as to influence what type of poeple voted. Then the whole amount of corruption. You are screaming there saying that John Ellis is corrupt. Yes he is and that is why I would not vote for him again if I was asked. It is not so much to do with Ellis but with this whole Fianna Fail arrogant machine. I thought Bertie had changed things and was different but he is just as bad as Burke, Lawlor et al. What is worse is that he set himself up as a ridder of corruption when he himself is as corrupt as fuck.

And Jugs - has he done such a good job? He has done well in the North but we have a third world education service, third world health service - the two most important services a governement can provide for despite having such a good time of it economically. And the seeds of the economy were set a long time ago but truly great politicans like Ray McSharry - Fianna Fail as well. Good and bad eggs in every party - Fianna Fail has more bad eggs though.

In conclusion, Fianna Fail have gone too far but don’t slate everyone that votes for them. It’s a quirk of the party politics system.

PS - Juhniallio Bertie is not a chartered accountant. He failed his last set of exams. Another thing he has lied about.

24

Broadcaster Eamon Dunphy has told the Mahon Tribunal that he was informed by a developer that Taoiseach Bertie Ahern had been ‘taken care of’ in relation to a shopping centre development.

Mr Dunphy said the inference he took from the conversation with Cork developer Owen O’Callaghan in the 1990s was that Mr Ahern had been ‘induced improperly’.

Mr Dunphy said the conversation took place while he and Mr O’Callaghan were involved in trying to get Wimbledon FC to relocate to a proposed stadium in west Dublin.

He said that Mr O’Callaghan was sceptical about Mr Ahern and told him he had failed to deliver on tax designation for a shopping centre development in Athlone despite being taken care of.

Meanwhile, the Taoiseach has denied Fine Gael claims that his legal challenge to the Mahon Tribunal will delay its work for up to six months.

Mr Ahern told reporters that the Tribunal has been going on for 11 years and he did not think he had caused it any delay.

He said he was ready to give evidence to the Tribunal next week, as scheduled.

25

‘a political donation for my personal use’ - what exactly is that? A personal donation?

The Taoiseach has told the Mahon Tribunal that he received funds of €12,000 from family members in the 1990s.

Bertie Ahern was responding to a series of questions relating to lodgements to a savings account he opened with the Irish Permanent Building Society in January 1994.

Mr Ahern cannot explain the source of a 5,000 cheque cashed at the Irish Permanent on the day the savings account was opened.

He said he did receive a contribution from someone around that time but he could not recall from whom, he described the payment as, ‘a political donation for my personal use’.

He told the Tribunal that his mother gave him a cheque for 7,000 which he lodged to his savings account in March 1993, a further 5,000 was given to him by his brother, which he says may be a lodgement made in December 1995.

Expressing his frustration with the questioning, Mr Ahern asked Judge Alan Mahon if he was expected to reveal the nature of his parents’ banking affairs.

Earlier, Mr Ahern agreed with lawyers for the Mahon Tribunal that a loan he took out with AIB in 1993 was not necessary because he had enough money in savings to pay a number of bills.

Speaking at the start of two days of evidence, Mr Ahern said he borrowed 19,115 to pay the legal fees of his former wife, a car loan she had and his own legal fees.

At the time, he kept cash savings of 54,000 in two safes at his constituency office and ministerial offices.

He said he wanted to keep his savings in the event of buying a new home following his marital separation.

It is Mr Ahern’s third time in the witness box in the past six months, and comes only days after the High Court set a date granting his legal team permission to challenge certain aspects of the tribunal’s enquiry.

Speaking on his way in to the tribunal, Mr Ahern said he had said last week that he would be at the tribunal today despite his High Court application attempting to restrict certain aspects of the tribunal’s questioning of him.

Asked if he was ready to answer all the tribunal’s questions, Bertie Ahern answered: ‘All the time.’

26

Subtle change in tack from FF supporters in the last couple of days.

The Irish Times letters page today has two letters attacking the Tribunal. Before the last election we were told to hold off on judging Bertie until the Mahon Tribunal had published its findings - that was the only time when a proper judgement could be reached according to the party. Now we get councillors writing in saying:

“Even with this information revealed, the tribunal still does not accept that the Taoiseach is being treated unfairly. Strange times we live in! And we are now supposed to wait for an unbiased and impartial report from the tribunal. I won’t be holding my breath.”

So the goalposts have been moved yet again. No point in waiting for Mahon anymore because it’s now a witchhunt. Instead we’re supposed to judge Bertie on his public utterances and ignore the show trial in Dublin Castle.

27

this whole thing is a farce to be honest. I wouldnt have any political bias, my father is a big FG head and wants me to be one, but in the last few elections I chose who I felt would best represent my area, not on what party has been going through generations, which is where a lot of the problems in this country stems from, people vote for tradition rather than whats actualy best.

The last election was ridiculous. FF did everything they could to lose it, yet the opposition were so poor they couldnt manage it. Instead of attacking FF properly, they went on a personal withchunt against bertie and I think he got a few middle of the road peoples votes purely out of stubborness.

Last year in Australia, they had a real gombeen in John Howard as Prime Minister. But he was voted out this time round in a massive change in election votes. Kevin Rudd did things right for the Labor Party and got into power. enda Kenny doesnt have the same persona or ability to do similar.

28

It’s being reported this morning that the Revenue Commissioners are taking an interest in the IR30,000 loan given to Celia Larkin now also. And a few backbenchers have finally started to utter a few public statements expressing their discomfort at what’s being revealed at the tribunal too. But it’s still a far cry from other countries where politicians speak out based on their ideals and beliefs rather than blindly follow their own party no matter what kind of corruption their cohorts are involved in. Self-interest comes before anything else in Irish politics as far as I can see and I put a question to you all that I asked Rocko the other day, ‘Why would anyone in their right mind join Fianna Fil?’ I work with a guy involved in Fianna Fil and I hear him on the phone arranging local Cumann meetings and talking about tactics for the upcoming local elections etc and I don’t understand what’s driving him other than a kind of nosey self-interest or longing to be part of the ‘in’ crowd. He was debating (loudly) recently how important it was to target Clondalkin early and get a presence out there. It’s clear as day he doesn’t have any interest in Clondalkin or the people that live there and he’s merely a tiny piece in the nationwide FF jigsaw yet he’s still arguing passionately about how they’ll best make inroads in west Dublin. I just don’t get it.

29

Biffo seems to have ripped the opposition apart in Taoiseach’s Questions yesterday. The opposition are a joke!

30

More attacking the messenger from FF. This is from the Irish Times letters from Tuesday - written by John Cregan (FF TD) and ridiculously relying on his crap role as Chairman of the Oireachtas Committee on Communications - as though this conveyed some sort of authority or expertise.

The more damning the Mahon Tribunal evidence, the more they turn against the Tribunal itself and its importance.

RT’S COVERAGE OF TRIBUNAL

Madam, - RT’s continued obsession with the Mahon tribunal is an issue of extreme concern to me and many of my fellow members in the Oireachtas.

On Thursday (February 21st) the coverage of the evidence of An Taoiseach Bertie Ahern at Dublin Castle was, by any analysis, excessive in the extreme.

On a day when our national airport faced crisis and many people faced potential job losses, RT chose to dedicate their lead story to the events at Dublin Castle on virtually every single news bulletin, and even transmitted live from the courtyard on the Six O’clock news.

Was this really the biggest news story of the day to the citizens of Ireland?

I fully accept and respect the tribunal’s mandate to investigate issues of corruption, equally I recognise RT’s responsibility to the public to inform them of the serious issues which are being investigated by the tribunal of inquiry.

However, as chairman of the Oireachtas Committee on Communications, I feel duty bound to ask questions on behalf of the Irish taxpayer and licence-paying public.

The treatment of this story in the news sections was further sensationalised all day long by a series of journalists discussing and analysing the exchanges during the course of the day.

In one single day no fewer that 18 journalists (11 RT journalists and broadcasters, seven additional journalists from other publications), a public relations expert, a barrister and two actors were used to reflect and parse and analyse this issue for the entire day.

Throughout the day we were treated to a constant series of journalists interviewing each other and expected to accept that this in some way represented a fair and balanced assessment of what transpired on the day and what has happened historically in relation to this matter over a number of years.

Having attempted to follow this story for a number of years I am weary, as I am sure are the public, of the constant attempts to have this issue exalted to the status of public execution by the media.Many people depend on RT for their news to keep themselves informed about national and international developments. I sincerely believe that the news coverage, coupled with the over-analysis by a number of like-minded individuals on the airwaves is contributing to a disillusionment with the body politic and I suggest that RT looks at their coverage with a view to re-establishing some sense of proportion and balance.

We should allow the tribunal to conduct its work and come to its conclusions. Equally, journalists should report the facts and allow people to make up their own minds on these issues. We should not be subjected to day-long opinions and conclusions as is the case at present.

The national broadcaster RT in their mission statement state that they will “inform the Irish public by delivering the best comprehensive independent news service possible” and “operate in the public interest, providing News and Current Affairs that is fair and impartial, accurate and challenging” and “connect with our audiences by understanding and satisfying their needs”. Failing to address this issue could very well leave the national broadcaster open to claims of agenda-setting and bias.

For a broadcaster with such a strong and well deserved reputation for balance and political impartiality, I believe this is not simply a matter of choice but a matter of necessity. - Yours, etc,

JOHN CREGAN, TD,

Dil ireann,

Dublin 2.

31

‘However, as chairman of the Oireachtas Committee on Communications, I feel duty bound to ask questions on behalf of the Irish taxpayer and licence-paying public.’

Dear John,

You do not speak for me.

Regards,
Bandage

32

Hard to believe the cheek of Cregan citing his role as Chaiperson of The Oireachtas Committee on Communications as reason to write that tripe. Wonder if Bertie has been getting advice from his friend Tony Blair on what to do in a crisis - divert attention by accusing national television station of bias.

33

Any nation’s leader being made to give evidence to a corruption tribunal should be blg news. Our own leader and it should be massive news. When he’s talking absolute bollocks and they show new accounts every time he appears it should be all the public talk about for weeks.

As an aside, our local in dublin north, ex td G.V.Wright said today at the Tribunal there was absolutely no connection whatsoever between his voting for rezoning for certain developers and them givinghim the thousands of pounds he admittedly got off them. Remember folks… ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION

34

Seems entirely plausible!

That said they’ve every right to take us for fools as collectively we voted them in again en masse.

35

[quote=“Juhniallio”]Any nation’s leader being made to give evidence to a corruption tribunal should be blg news. Our own leader and it should be massive news. When he’s talking absolute bollocks and they show new accounts every time he appears it should be all the public talk about for weeks.

As an aside, our local in dublin north, ex td G.V.Wright said today at the Tribunal there was absolutely no connection whatsoever between his voting for rezoning for certain developers and them givinghim the thousands of pounds he admittedly got off them. Remember folks… ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION[/quote]

If ever there was a cunt on the take… Jesus Christ, how that man was ever elected is beyond me.

36

Wait for the Lisbon Treaty to go down the tubes, we’ll see what happens after that!

37

Fairly damning evidence in the Tribunal yesterday.

Bertie claimed that the only money he lodged to his Irish Permanent account was salaries paid in by cheques.

The manager of Irish Permanent at the time (and another guy) went through the records and showed the equivalent of 15k STG going in. There was a foreign exchange transaction for this exact amount just before to convert Sterling into Irish punts. Bertie says he never lodged sterling. They’ve really proven him wrong. Bertie’s lawyer wants time to speak with his client before he responds.

Then you have the farce of his secretary lying to cover up for him. She denied knowing he even had an account at Irish Permanent in Drumcondra and denied ever making lodgements for him there. Now confronted with the evidence she conceded that she must have made some lodgements for him. Ridiculously she persisted with the notion that none of these were in sterling - despite the evidence from the bank showing the foreign exchange transactions, and the branch manager’s own evidence who recalls discussing the sterling transactions with Bertie’s secretary.

Mahon told her to go home and think about her evidence. Very interesting to see what angle she takes today but at the moment she’s being hung out to dry.

38

Dear Sirs,

Personally, I think it’s a disgrace we even have the temerity to question the evidence given by the country’s leader. It’s got to the stage where he’s almost being hounded on a daily basis to reveal full and frank details of all the scandalous corruption he’s allegedly been involved in. We should have more respect for his title and office and allow him to amass personal wealth from a series of under the table payments from developers and other interested parties. After all, the country is going great.

Regards,
Fiona Foyle

39

[quote=“therock67”]Fairly damning evidence in the Tribunal yesterday.

Mahon told her to go home and think about her evidence. Very interesting to see what angle she takes today but at the moment she’s being hung out to dry.[/quote]

Another day and yet more lies it seems. Rock do you think Bertie asked his secretary to lie for him or is it sort of a thing where she cant be seen to let the side down and she has been advised by Bertie’s team to have a forgetful memory? Following is from RTE

The Taoiseach’s former secretary, Grainne Carruth, broke down at the Mahon Tribunal today after saying she now accepts she lodged sterling on his behalf.

But when Ms Carruth insisted she did not remember making the lodgements for Bertie Ahern she was warned that it is a criminal offence to lie to the tribunal.

The Mahon Tribunal has uncovered evidence that 15,500 sterling cash was lodged to Bertie Ahern’s building society accounts and those of his daughters in 1994.

AdvertisementThis has contradicted Mr Ahern’s evidence that the money came from salary cheques.

Grainne Carruth previously denied to the tribunal that she ever handled sterling on Mr Ahern’s behalf or lodged any money to his account.

She now accepts ‘on the balance of probability’ that she lodged sterling after seeing documentation from 1994, but says she does not remember it.

Des O’Neill SC told her that to lie to or obstruct the tribunal is an offence punishable with a fine of up to 300,000 or two years imprisonment.

When he asked Ms Carruth why she had not contacted Mr Ahern when she received documentation from the tribunal showing she had been involved in sterling lodgements on his behalf, Ms Carruth replied that she was upset.

She became emotional and said she wanted to go home.

Chairman Judge Alan Mahon said Ms Carruth should be allowed a short break.

40

Poor thing - she wanted to go home!

Don’t know how or why it came about Larry but I’d imagine there’s a culture of talking among themselves and just sort of suggesting what would be good to say and what wouldn’t. Either way she didn’t do a very good job of lying at all and this shite about not remembering is truly horseshit. If she doesn’t remember then it suggests to me that there was loads more of this going on. This was a woman earning 66 a week at the time - 3,432 a year and she claims to not remember bringing 15k to the bank. Imagine getting 5 times your salary into your hand in a foreign currency and converting it to Euros and then lodging it to someone else’s bank account and not remembering doing that.

Either she was doing this every day or she remembers this transaction. Only doing it once but not remembering it just doesn’t stand up.