He’s now initiated legal proceedings against certain aspects of the Mahon Tribunal. The one that astounds me is that his lawyers are claiming the tribunal has no entitlement to cross-examine him about statements he made in the Dil. Personally, I’d expect the leader of my country to welcome the opportunity to clear up matters surrounding his personal finances but the opposite appears to be happening in this case. The legal action seems to have been taken with the aim of evading particular questions that he doesn’t want to answer and, in my opinion, it’s blatantly engaging in red tape in an attempt to stall / slow down the Tribunal. In effect, it will ensure tax-payers foot the additional cost of potential Tribunal overruns as a result of his evasive tactics also. Yet, still he’s the leader of the country. Strewth.
He’s clearly an arsehole and clearly hiding something. Utterly ashamed of the gobshites that returned him to power. Farmer and Ben hang your heads in shame.
Leave Farmer and Ben alone. Walk proud comrades.
As a matter of interest farmer/ben if an election was called tomorrow and you were given the same candidates would you still vote FF and would the leader of FF have any impact on whether or not you vote for them?
I’m not a particularly big FF head at all but to be honest i think it’s a disgrace the way our country’s leader has been treated by the tribunal and certain aspects of the media over the last few years and it’s an embarrasment upon our nation that the person the people of Ireland chose to be their leader for a 3rd (i think?) term is permanently hounded about personal affairs. His reputation has been tarnished beyond repair, he should be left to do the job he was elected to do and has done extremely well over the past 10 years i.e. lead our country.
Why Jugs? If you remember back to the last election FF (and indeed FG and Labour) were very keen to point out that the election had nothing to do with the tribinal and the focus was only on the policy issues. Now some months on FF ministers are telling us that the people re-elected Bertie and gave him a vote of confidence in relation to tribunal matters when the one issue they said should not be discussed at election time was the election. Also why should the Taoiseach’s matters not be investigated just because he is Taoiseach?
Well I’ll answer the question first - I would not vote Fianna Fail. I voted for them the last time based primarily I must say because I thought they were the best of a bad bunch.
The whole Bertie scenario though has sickened me beyond belief. First his sickening performance in the Bryan Dobson interview where he pretended to break down about his separation in an attempt to gain pity from the audience. Then his incredible arrogance with the Mahon Tribunal when he was the very guy to try and gain credibility by trying to clean up Fianna Fail. I don’t like the guy and I don’t like the way his entire party is rolling in behind him.
So what about the issue itself? Forget the tax implications - he was getting personal donations when he was Minister for Finance. In any other country in the world the man would be gone years ago
I never said the Taoiseach should not be investigated. I’m referring to the constant hounding of him over the past few years which has been ridiculously invasive, over the top and embarrassing for us as a nation who are happy to have this man representing us all over the world and even happier to reap the rewards of the most successful period of economic growth in the history of the state, which he has presided over.
Do you honestly think people going into polling booths said to themselves “ignore the tribunal, ignore the tribunal” as they decided who to vote on? The people re-elected Bertie having known more about him, his past and his personal affairs than any other head of state in history yet certain media and the opposition still want us to hear about 10 quid discovered in the crack of his ass in 1994 and what businessman put it there.
I cannot imagine a head of state in another first world country being subjected to this treatment, i cannot imagine taxpayers in another country accepting the millions of thier money being spent to support such charade involving their chosen leader and even if certain people get their wish and Bertie resigns, will it end there? No…it appears Cowen had a cyril the squirrel savings account in the '60s that a family friend contributed to, lets get him.
[quote=“Jugs”]I never said the Taoiseach should not be investigated. I’m referring to the constant hounding of him over the past few years which has been ridiculously invasive, over the top and embarrassing for us as a nation who are happy to have this man representing us all over the world and even happier to reap the rewards of the most successful period of economic growth in the history of the state, which he has presided over.
Do you honestly think people going into polling booths said to themselves “ignore the tribunal, ignore the tribunal” as they decided who to vote on? The people re-elected Bertie having known more about him, his past and his personal affairs than any other head of state in history yet certain media and the opposition still want us to hear about 10 quid discovered in the crack of his ass in 1994 and what businessman put it there.
I cannot imagine a head of state in another first world country being subjected to this treatment, i cannot imagine taxpayers in another country accepting the millions of thier money being spent to support such charade involving their chosen leader and even if certain people get their wish and Bertie resigns, will it end there? No…it appears Cowen had a cyril the squirrel savings account in the '60s that a family friend contributed to, lets get him.[/quote]
I don’t think the tribunal was a key factor in how many people voted. Perhaps it should have been but I would say there were other issues which were of greater importance to most people. I, unlike you, do not feel as if I know the ins and outs of his financial affairs as he has done so much to avoid or waffle on the issue. We may know irrelevant information on his personal life but lets not forget the Taoiseach is the one who constanly brings his personal life into the equation, when it has nothing to do with what is being discussed. This country has a appalling record with record to the corruption of politicians in recent years. The only way to ensure that is wiped out is for the politicians to realise that if they are corrupt they will be caught. I wish we could hold our politicians to as high a standard as other countries do.
[quote=“farmerinthecity”]Well I’ll answer the question first - I would not vote Fianna Fail. I voted for them the last time based primarily I must say because I thought they were the best of a bad bunch.
The whole Bertie scenario though has sickened me beyond belief. First his sickening performance in the Bryan Dobson interview where he pretended to break down about his separation in an attempt to gain pity from the audience. Then his incredible arrogance with the Mahon Tribunal when he was the very guy to try and gain credibility by trying to clean up Fianna Fail. I don’t like the guy and I don’t like the way his entire party is rolling in behind him.
So what about the issue itself? Forget the tax implications - he was getting personal donations when he was Minister for Finance. In any other country in the world the man would be gone years ago[/quote]
Interesting to read farmer
If other matters are far more important than this tribunal then why is a completely disproportionate amount of media and political time devoted to it?
How much do you want to know about his financial affairs? Why does it matter to you? What impacts more on his ability to run the country, a few quid which may or may not have been received questionably 10 years ago or endless hours of his precious time answering questions about it, reading about it and preparing for the next onslaught?
Are we really triyng to follow other countries and set a high standard for our policitcians by dragging the country’s leader through the mud?
[quote=“Jugs”]If other matters are far more important than this tribunal then why is a completely disproportionate amount of media and political time devoted to it?
How much do you want to know about his financial affairs? Why does it matter to you? What impacts more on his ability to run the country, a few quid which may or may not have been received questionably 10 years ago or endless hours of his precious time answering questions about it, reading about it and preparing for the next onslaught?
Are we really triyng to follow other countries and set a high standard for our policitcians by dragging the country’s leader through the mud?[/quote]
1.Because it is an extremely important issue whether or not the leader of this state is corrupt or not.
2.All I want to know is whether or not he took money inappropriately
3.Both are crucial elements. I don’t want somebody who is inept to run this state nor do I want somebody who is corrupt.
4.I doubt the sincerity of parties like FG in all this. I applaud anyone who is trying to genuinely clean up Irish politics.
I couldnt care less if he took the money “inappropriately.” I’d be the most corrupt fooker on the face of the earth if punters wanted favours of me for green.
And anyway lads Diamond Joe Quimby is class, Bertie is just like him.
[quote=“Jugs”]If other matters are far more important than this tribunal then why is a completely disproportionate amount of media and political time devoted to it?
How much do you want to know about his financial affairs? Why does it matter to you? What impacts more on his ability to run the country, a few quid which may or may not have been received questionably 10 years ago or endless hours of his precious time answering questions about it, reading about it and preparing for the next onslaught?
Are we really triyng to follow other countries and set a high standard for our policitcians by dragging the country’s leader through the mud?[/quote]
Here’s why it matters to me Jugs. Cos that bloke is the leader of a ridiculously corrupt party. He’s the chartered accountant who didn’t have a bank account, the accountant who routinely signed blank party cheques, the man who leads a party in league with the builders and developers of this land who profitted hugely in the last ten years at the expense of taxpayers. The party who didn’t give a fuck what was rezoned as long as the money flowed. I live in North County Dublin, Fingal to be precise, where I watch family and friends slide into negative equity because the badly built houses and apartments they bought in areas lacking in basic infrastructure were so overpriced by the scumbag builders who passed on the cash to Fianna Fil. Ray Burke-the man Bertie protested that ‘he had climbed every tree in North Dublin to find evidence against’ was done for taking cash for planning permission for our area.
The builders who got land rezoned around here are big donaters to FF. We are paying for their corrupt ways. And I have a huge problem with the disrespect he shows for the land’s highest office. As my uncle who has known and worked with Bertie(and likes him personally) for about fifteen years says ‘the one thing everybody knows what they payed for is their house’, Bertie has changed that story more than three times. He’s dishonest scum.
The price of tribunals is worth it if it makes fooks think twice about abusing power.
I’d like to see the fucker fry.
Get it up ya, ya FF apologist, ginger fook.
Well who the fuck was I going to vote for Fine Gael, don’t make me laugh!
I think it’s time for Biffo to take over the party, as this nonsence is clearly eating up Dail time.
Being honest I’d still vote Fianna Fail, I don’t have any faith in the opposition.
[quote=“larryduff”]1.Because it is an extremely important issue whether or not the leader of this state is corrupt or not.
2.All I want to know is whether or not he took money inappropriately
3.Both are crucial elements. I don’t want somebody who is inept to run this state nor do I want somebody who is corrupt.
4.I doubt the sincerity of parties like FG in all this. I applaud anyone who is trying to genuinely clean up Irish politics.[/quote]
- Important to you and some others but clearly nowhere near the top of the agenda to the thousands of ordinary people, rich and poor, who vote for Bertie and FF.
- If it makes you sleep better at night then i guess it’s worth the millions.
- It’s rare you’ll get both in modern times. Give me an excellent politician who’s done great work for our economy (yet possibly has taken a few quid inappropriately) any day over some saint who could potentially undo some of the progress of the last decade (current opposition don’t exactly inspire me)
- I assume you’re not referring to the barristers who have become millionnaires because of Mahon. Personally i’d prefer if this money was spent on our health service.
Jugs I think it’s a bit much that you’re suggesting that the Irish media are hounding Bertie out of office and going way beyond the actions of what other countries would do. I have absolutely no doubt that he wouldn’t have survived the facts we know about him in the UK or the US. It’s simply not acceptable for someone to cheat the way he has. You can talk about our economic prosperity all you like but that’s like arguing that Michael Lynne doesn’t deserve to go to jail because he was a good solicitor. If you’re cheating then you’re cheating.
This is also the same “hounding media” whose best selling paper is the Sunday Independent who met Bertie, decided to support him in exchange for a job in the senate for one of the writers and God knows what else, and then gave him a couple of pages to pour his heart out in before the election. That’s not hounding, that’s fucking adoration.
In Fingal the greed and avarice that’s associated with Fianna Fil is all too apparent. I like my sports but frankly I find it a bit ridiculous that within a mile’s walk from my gaff I can walk to 4 separate astro facilities. All built as tiny drop in the ocean placations to keep the locals happy while Fianna Fil (and they weren’t alone in it, but by God they were the leaders) sold every last blade of grass to their builder mates. And then rezoned it for them.
And Fingal is a mess of houses with no shops or schools, half built roads that go as far as the first showhouse and no further, and a pathetic public transport infrastructure. It’s development in name only because frankly the area’s a mess.
Not all of that is Bertie’s fault as an individual but it does go some way to suggesting that his eptitude (is that a word) isn’t as great at grass roots level.
And as I said in the first paragraph above it’s all irrelevant because the prick was on the take and arguing that other achievements make that redundant is pure nonsense. It’s an embarrassment to have a lying, deceitful prick for our leader.
[quote=“Juhniallio”]Here’s why it matters to me Jugs. Cos that bloke is the leader of a ridiculously corrupt party. He’s the chartered accountant who didn’t have a bank account, the accountant who routinely signed blank party cheques, the man who leads a party in league with the builders and developers of this land who profitted hugely in the last ten years at the expense of taxpayers. The party who didn’t give a fuck what was rezoned as long as the money flowed. I live in North County Dublin, Fingal to be precise, where I watch family and friends slide into negative equity because the badly built houses and apartments they bought in areas lacking in basic infrastructure were so overpriced by the scumbag builders who passed on the cash to Fianna Fil. Ray Burke-the man Bertie protested that ‘he had climbed every tree in North Dublin to find evidence against’ was done for taking cash for planning permission for our area.
The builders who got land rezoned around here are big donaters to FF. We are paying for their corrupt ways. And I have a huge problem with the disrespect he shows for the land’s highest office. As my uncle who has known and worked with Bertie(and likes him personally) for about fifteen years says ‘the one thing everybody knows what they payed for is their house’, Bertie has changed that story more than three times. He’s dishonest scum.
The price of tribunals is worth it if it makes fooks think twice about abusing power.
I’d like to see the fucker fry.
Get it up ya, ya FF apologist, ginger fook.[/quote]
barristers/builders, does it matter which of the “b’s” gets rich?
i suspect those houses were overpriced by the demand for housing from all the irish people(and possibly fingalians) earning more money than ever before because of the strength of the economy that Bertie/FF led over the last decade and the thousands of foreign people who wanted to come live, work and be educated in the fastest growing economy in western europe which… let me see now… was led by Bertie/FF!!
Corruption comes with power, not with the emblem of a particular party.
Politics will never be completely free of corruption and i’m prepared to put up with a certain amount provided it’s not to the detriment of our economy, the international reputation of our state, my future or the future of my friends/family, which is what i care about when voting. FF, FG, Labour, Greens or tubby Neelo and his cronies with their rickety shacks in the sovereign state of fingal, it makes no difference - if they’re doing a good job then i’ll keep voting for them because i’m not prepared to take the risk of putting somebody else in unless they convince me they have the ability to do a better job.
[quote=“therock67”]Jugs I think it’s a bit much that you’re suggesting that the Irish media are hounding Bertie out of office and going way beyond the actions of what other countries would do. I have absolutely no doubt that he wouldn’t have survived the facts we know about him in the UK or the US. It’s simply not acceptable for someone to cheat the way he has. You can talk about our economic prosperity all you like but that’s like arguing that Michael Lynne doesn’t deserve to go to jail because he was a good solicitor. If you’re cheating then you’re cheating.
This is also the same “hounding media” whose best selling paper is the Sunday Independent who met Bertie, decided to support him in exchange for a job in the senate for one of the writers and God knows what else, and then gave him a couple of pages to pour his heart out in before the election. That’s not hounding, that’s fucking adoration.
In Fingal the greed and avarice that’s associated with Fianna Fil is all too apparent. I like my sports but frankly I find it a bit ridiculous that within a mile’s walk from my gaff I can walk to 4 separate astro facilities. All built as tiny drop in the ocean placations to keep the locals happy while Fianna Fil (and they weren’t alone in it, but by God they were the leaders) sold every last blade of grass to their builder mates. And then rezoned it for them.
And Fingal is a mess of houses with no shops or schools, half built roads that go as far as the first showhouse and no further, and a pathetic public transport infrastructure. It’s development in name only because frankly the area’s a mess.
Not all of that is Bertie’s fault as an individual but it does go some way to suggesting that his eptitude (is that a word) isn’t as great at grass roots level.
And as I said in the first paragraph above it’s all irrelevant because the prick was on the take and arguing that other achievements make that redundant is pure nonsense. It’s an embarrassment to have a lying, deceitful prick for our leader.[/quote]
We live in a democracy, the people have voted for their leader fully aware of what he has / has apparently done. If he’s voted out by those same people because of any kind of corruption then fair enough. Are you suggesting that the people (a very large % of our population) are corrupt too because they vote for FF or just clueless because they don’t put down the paper every morning and go demonstrate outside the Dail? If you’re bringing irrelevant non politicians into it, should a footballer be expelled from the league for diving? People have different priorities in a politician (not talking developers here). Not everyone is hell bent on having the perfect leader, some people like it when the country is doing well and see the good outweighing the bad in Bertie/FF - it’s their choice. There are pros and cons with everything in life and it a matter of personal choice how you weigh them up.
Can we have a thread on this forum where your personal hatred of the Sindo doesn’t somehow get brought into the argument? I think having a full thread devoted to it is enough.
The media has a right to report on things like Mahon and express opinions as the majority do in a negative manner towards Bertie yet you slate the Sindo (which i don’t read) for exercising its right to an opinion and to report in a certain way.
Are you and your friends happy to use those sports facilities or do you refrain in order to register your disapproval at how/why they were built?
Regarding last paragraph, i never argued that his achievements made any wrondoing redundant, i choose to place greater emphasis on issues that are more important to me, as is my right, as is the right of all those who vote for Bertie and put him in power and i would be embarrassed to be in a foreign country and have to explain to someone why our elected leader has been hounded for the past number of years with no single charge being brought against him.