“Is Miller’s good form an indication of how weak the Scottish league is?”
This is the comment by Bill O’Herlihy that has sparked the debate. Rock/Bandage have said that this is an outrageous comment. I have said that it is not. Miller was an average player in the second tier of the English League. Now he is admitedly in good form. How is this the case? It is not unreasonable to suggest that the reason for this is that he is in an inferior league.
The twins have put forward the Champions League argument. Miller is currently joint top scorer in the Champions League. That is a seperate issue. My argument was based on the above Championship vs
SPL debate, which you (plural) still haven’t addressed. Does scoring in three Champions League games mean that you are a top class player, and if it does then how can you explain the fact that Miller was only good enough for the English League’s second tier?
The argument then somewhat swayed towards a straight up debate on the quality of the SPL. I pointed out that in the almost 15 years only one Scottish team has progressed past the group stages of the Champions League. This has nothing to do with Sky Sports. I simply took the most recent, and therefore relevant, time and pointed out that the Scottish League has failed to provide a second round team on all but one occassion.
So Celtic fans get the fucking chip off your shoulder and debate the issues. Maybe the reason that everyone says that the SPL is rubbish is because it may just actually be the case
You were well and truly put in your box by my Liverpool analogy and still you come back for more. In some ways I admire that.
Can you not see how the question Is Millers good form an indication of how weak the Scottish league is? is absolutely ridiculous given the context it was asked in?
This was after he had given one of the greatest front man performances of our generation. Such was its quality theres a debate raging amongst Celtic supporting circles as to whether it was better than Henriks performance in Seville. And then you come on here saying that his immense performance was a direct result of his playing in a weak league. There is no logic here. How can you equate the supreme quality of Kennys performance with your viewpoint that he only achieved that ridiculously high level of performance by virtue of playing in a poor league? It is quite frankly nonsense. Surely by your reasoning it should follow that if Miller is playing in a weak league then he will struggle at a higher level. But you appear to be saying the reason he destroyed Benficas defence (by the way a Benfica defence that didnt concede a goal against your beloved Liverpool over 2 legs last year) is because hes operating in a league where the level is considerably lower than the level where he is now prospering! This doesnt make any sense at all. Its total nonsense. As Liam Brady might say: Youre talking through your hoop Eamonn.
I will repeat that again for you such is the amazingly preposterous argument you are trying to put forward:
Can you not see how the question Is Millers good form an indication of how weak the Scottish league is? is absolutely ridiculous given the context it was asked in?
Miller has scored 3 goals in 3 Champions League games and 7 international goals in the last year and quite incredibly Bill OHerlihy and yourself appear to think that this signifies that the Scottish league is weak! That defies any logic whatsoever. Forget about the fact that we have argued about the merits of the SPL before and youre staunch in your view. Try to look at the facts in Millers case. If you do look at the facts and still contend that scoring goals at the highest level for club and country is proof that the SPL is weak then I find this absurd in the extreme. In reply Liam Brady simply said: Hes scoring here at the highest level Bill so you cant really say that at all. Of course you are entitled to your viewpoint that its a weak league but youre basing this on the fact that hes playing well at a higher level. Strange!
I presume this is a wind up. Your reasoning is truly incredible. It is not unreasonable to suggest the reason hes in good form is because hes in a weak league. Youre having an absolute laugh. Its akin to Michael Lyster asking the panel after Kilkenny won the All Ireland hurling championship: Is that a sign that the Kilkenny county championship is weak lads? Will you ever cop on and get over this anti-Celtic scheidt that you keep on spouting.
As for the SPL in general; monetary constraints will always make if difficult for the teams outwith the current top 3. There are teams in the championship in England earning 10 times as much from TV revenue as Celtic. The Celtic team that destroyed Benfica the other night was built on a much smaller budget compared to an average or mediocre EPL team and thats a testament to both the manager and players. It cost roughly 10m to assemble and you see the likes of Everton almost spending that on one player:
Boruc 600k from Legia Warsaw
Telfer Free from Southampton
Caldwell Bosman from Hibernian
McManus promoted from youth academy
Naylor 600k Wolves
Nakamura 2.5m from Reggina
Lennon 5m from Leicester
Sno 80k from Feyenoord
Maloney promoted from youth academy
Miller Bosman from Wolves
Zurawski 1m from Wisla Krakow
The difference between Celtic, Rangers and the rest in Scotland is that they do have the resources to go out and buy someone for a couple of million pounds every summer. That said Hibernian play some of the best football on these islands and are a joy to watch at times. A struggling Rangers team also won away in Italy the other night so maybe the SPL is not as brutal as you would believe. As for Celtic in the current CL set up; they have struggled away from home and this was a flaw in Martin ONeills great team imo. He liked to play a direct game as (quite understandably) he saw Larsson and Sutton as our best players. Sometimes this didnt allow for good retention of the ball away from home and allowed the opposition to build up possession and pressure. Not qualifying with 9 points was tough to take in our first cut at it as was the late penalty Balde gave away at Lyon on the last match day that prevented us going through the second time. (If memory serves me correctly I got up and walked out of the pub at the final whistle without speaking to anyone I was watching the game with). The 3rd time there was no shame in not qualifying from a group containing Milan and Barcelona. But what gives? Answer my point also if you will. Do you consider Liverpool to never have won a league title in England? Why the fixation on the current format? Why do you feel the need to use this as a stick to try beat Celtic with?
As for this year the patient, passing game adopted by Strachan is one of the main reasons why I was always confident that Celtic would be excellently equipped in Europe this season. The easy on the eye, pass and move style with fluidity of position and characterised by constant movement is ideal for the Champions League and thats why its no surprise to see the likes of Naka playing out of his skin at this level. I repeat my contention from the other night that the only other team in England or Scotland capable of matching Celtic as regards style of play are Arsenal. If Celtic are playing in a rubbish league then by fook its not harming them this season when they move up to the next level.
The lads might not like this but Amen to that Bandage. Cracking post.
I think the Kilkenny County Championship point is the best counter to the general question “Is Miller’s good form an indication of how weak the Scottish league is?”
As you pointed out as well, the question was pretty much laughed off by the panel, as was the other one about Strachan being ready for a job in the Premiership maybe. They were preposterous questions and the panel didn’t entertain them.
Just to answer some of farmer’s points individually:
Miller was played on the right wing for Wolves. (Eerily similar to Larsson playing on the right wing for Feyernood and under-achieving. Strachan saw his performances for Scotland and knew he could work for a quality passing side like Celtic and he has been proven wonderfully correct. I’m sure everyone else would concede that Larsson’s move to Celtic turned him from an average player - operating out of position - to a world class player).
I don’t understand why any performance Miller has given in the Champions League would allow you to compare the SPL and the English second tier. Have you seen him play in the SPL farmer? And it is obvious to anyone who has been watching him this season that Miller was good enough for much better than the English second tier, as he has proved.
You didn’t state any years in your comment on the Champions League, you said Rangers were the only Scottish team to progress beyond the group stages of the Champions League. This is pure nonsense and well you know it. Dublin have never won the Bank of Ireland Senior Football Championship. Wexford have never won the Guinness Senior Hurling Championship. Christ, nobody has ever won the Magner’s League. Pure fucking nonsense. (Also as everyone knows the Champions League structure is geared towards protecting the big leagues by allowing them more entrants and country coefficient seedings so it perpetuates the structure first devised by UEFA, rather than allowing new footballing forces to emerge from smaller leagues).
I cannot believe that I am the only one on this forum who feels anger at Celtic fan’s constant defensive viewpoint.
A few things in response to the lads’ somewhat predictable response:
Bandage you did not ‘well and truly worth put me in my place’ with my comment on Liverpool. This is a technique you resort to frequently in your arguments. Who says you put me in my place? The Rock? He doesn’t count
I could address all the views expressed but I think that it is just easier if I state my viewpoint and address the lads’ response in relation to it.
My view is that Kenny Miller is nowhere near a world class player. This is because playing three matches in the Champions League does not make you world class. Come back in five years and then you can make that statement. He was also a failure in the English League. How can you say Rock that he was wasted in the English League? He played for Wolves and hardly set the place alight. If he was a good as you say he is (world class has been used - ha) why didnt some Premiership club buy him? If he was playing on the right (a fact I dispute by the way) then surley his world class ability would still shine through and he would have at least got some interest from a lower Premiership club. It didnt happen.
Now he he is playing for the top club in Scotland and has scored freely this season. That, combined with numerous other facts about the SPL, shows that the league is a load of rubbish. I mean Celtic and Rangers are trying to get out of it. Why can’t you guys just admit that? It is obvious to everyone. Why Bandage, if Hibernian play some of the best football on these islands has their manager left for a team in England’s second tier (Mowbray to WBA)?
This whole Kilkenny argument is a load of bollox. If Kilkenny win the All-Ireland then they are the best team in the country and their club championship is as good as any other. What the fuck are you on about?
I dont know why you are so obsessed with this whole Sky Sports idea. I said that Rangers are the only Scottish team to qualify for the second round of the Champions league. I specifically used the ‘Champions League’ term to display the most recent time, which I believe to be the most relevant, and hence the ineptitude of the SPL. The statement is true though. Also Bandage, Liverpool have never won a Premiership title. Yes Celtic have won the European Cup and Liverpool have won English leagues. I fail to understand your anger on this
The money argument has been thrown out there. That is introducing another element into the debate. IF the SPL had the money of the EPL then it would have as good of quality. Perhaps it would or wouldn’t but that is irrelevant to the current state of the SPL which is frankly piss
I’m starting to get pissed off with you now. I hate the fact that you can’t admit you were wrong all along. As I said before you think the SPL is crap but how can you base this on the fact that Miller has excelled at a higher level? I think it comes down to the fact that Celtic brushed Liverpool aside a few years back and you can’t let it go. Do any of the other posters here who view the SPL in poor terms not think that the basis of farmer’s argument, ie Kenny Miller’s excellent performances in the Champions League mean the SPL is weak is at best ill informed and at worst absolute bollox? Well ClarkeyCat, steamboatsam etc?
The Kilkenny comparison is indeed apt and has everything to do with this debate. I used a lower level (county championship) and questioned whether Kilkenny’s victory at national level (inter county championship) means that the lesser level is of a lower quality. Replace the county championship with the SPL and the All Ireland championship with the Champions League and it’s a logical argument, unlike anything you have put forward here. In simple terms does Kilkenny’s excellent form at inter-county level arise because they have a weak county championship!!! That is the logic you are using and you refuse to recognise how flawed that is. If that’s not simplified enough for you here’s a similar example to the one you’re using - does the form of Samuel Et’oo in the Champions League last season mean that La Liga is weak? Of course it doesn’t yet that is the self same argument you’re putting forward as regards Miller. You are talking pure and utter nonsense here. Either you know it and won’t accept it or know it yet are continuing on a wind up.
As for ‘the constant defensive’ viewpoint of Celtic supporters, I get annoyed at ignorant comments from people who know fook all about Celtic yet conclude on the merits of the team and its players as if they are experts in this field. Previously you wrote off the Bundesliga without watching it and now you are doing the same with the SPL. Have you watched Celtic play this season in the SPL? As for your argument that Miller is scoring freely in the SPL thereby proving its weakness, again this is blatantly untrue. He has scored his 75% of his goals in the Champions League with his 1 league goal coming from 7 starts and 3 substitute appearances. He’s excelling at a higher level than the SPL, the highest level in world club football and you stil remain blinkered in your view. It is quite incredible really. As I said previously you are almost paying the SPL a back handed compliment with your ridiculous comments about Miller’s goalscoring for Celtic - if Miller can score freely in Europe yet not in the SPL then does that not put the SPL in a positive light? You say his scoring freely for Celtic means the SPL is crap. The FACTS are he has scored freely in Europe and for his national team and not in the SPL. Accept that please - it is a fact. Stop repeating the same incorrect statement.
Your obsession with the Premiership borders on the obscene. Why does interest from a Premiership club automatically make somebody a world class player like you seem to be intimating? There are any number of rubbish players in the EPL and an absolute load of shit teams. For fook sake Bolton are currently third, a kick and rush long ball team that play in an empty stadium. By your reasoning had Big Fat Corrupt Sam or some other mediocre Premiership club come in for Miller you would have had more respect for his ability. It was actually the Celtic Football Club that did. They are one of the biggest clubs in the world although based on previous posts of yours like when when you claimed Paolo Di Canio playing for West Ham was a step up from Celtic you would disagree. For fook sake this is a team who creamed themselves when they got to a Cup Final. Celtic play in the Champions League most seasons and win more trophies every 4 or 5 years than most EPL teams have in their history. By the way Miller WAS used on the right wing for Wolves by Glenn Hoddle, a fact backed up by Wolves message boards when Celtic supporters were enquiring about him in the summer.
I am flabbergasted by your refusal to back down when faced with facts. Instead you keep repeating the same initial incorrect statements or revert to moving the goalposts. I would put the absolute diatribe you are posting on this thread up there with the famous Gary McAllister debate. As I said you think the SPL is weak but HOW CAN SCORING IN THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE, A HIGHER LEVEL THAN THE SPL SIGNIFY THIS?
I have numbered your arguments 1 to 5 so I can respond to them easier.
A Premiership club didn’t buy him because they waste all their money on unproven and outdated talents and he was not the type of “box office” signing that appeals to fans of The Most Hyped League in the World. It might be the same reason why a Premiership club didn’t buy Henrik Larsson when he was struggling to set the place alight at Feyernood. They didn’t think he was good enough. When will you realise that success or otherwise in the Premiership does not decide whether someone is a good player or not? Whatever about the rest of your arguments do yourself a favour and concede this point.
Also I find it laughable that you’re willing to “dispute” the fact that he played on the right but you don’t provide any supporting evidence. Not much of a dispute is it?
As Bandage has pointed out he hasn’t scored freely in the SPL. You didn’t know this. You were wrong. He hasn’t moved from the Championship to the SPL and turned into an overnight goalscoring sensation. He has moved to a vastly superior football team where he has improved his play, displayed one of the best attitudes I have ever seen from a footballer, and the result has been his brilliant form.
On the Tony Mowbray point - Mowbray left a Championship team to manage Hibernian and returned to a Championship team. Are you suggesting he took a step down and then a step back up again? Mowbray is a decent manager, unproven, but he did very well with very limited funds at Hibs. There are less top-level management opportunities in Scotland so that might have been a factor in his decision, though he had turned down 3 Championship jobs already.
The Kilkenny point is explained well by Bandage. Your preposterous argument is that Kenny Miller’s goalscoring feats in the Champions League is somehow dependent on a weak SPL clealy makes no sense.
The “Champions League” and “Premiership” arguments are silly. History doesn’t begin and end when the marketing guys change the name of a competition. Liverpool have never won the championship - how silly does that sound?
Didn’t really want to get involved here because the arguments been had before and I’m fairly bored of it. Similarly, Robbie Fowler in his prime versus Kenny Miller now just wasn’t worthy of my oh so valuable time. But seeing as I was mentioned by name I’ll put forward by tuppence worth.
Using the same references as therock67:
I don’t think Celtic fans were exactly overjoyed at the signing of Kenny Miller and Gary Caldwell. Now they’re all about them. Celtic don’t make “box office” signings because they can’t afford to. I think Kenny Miller is a good player but not world class. He’s scored in three games for Celtic this season afaik, hardly amazing.
Miller’s attitude is spot-on but there are plenty like him. Don’t really care about the Mowbray point.
The argument that Miller’s good form in the CL is due to the SPL being weak is indeed ridiculous.
Farmer has explained that he realises history doesn’t begin with the EPL/CL. He’s just giving a recent timeframe. I’ll ask him if he’d mind saying “since 1992” from now on. Is this acceptable?
You concede on this yet attempt to sweep it under the carpet. It’s entirely relevant. The SPL is sub-standard but if it had the money… Come back to me when it does.
Re: Bandage’s point about Liverpool beiing brushed aside by Celtic. Fair enough they were. But let’s not forget that Liverpool have won a CL and Uefa Cup in the last five years. That is all.
I knew you’d get involved at some stage. Fair enough reponses I’d say overall.
I agree that Miller was an underwhelming signing. I think you’d agree that the lack of interest from the EPL does not by make him a a bad player though.
Fine, agreed.
Agreed.
Yes. It’s a pet hate and it’s a bit annoying that’s all.
I said it was irrelevant because Farmer said it was irrelevant and didn’t want to go into it. So I left it at that.
I was one of those Celtic supporters unenthused by the Miller, Caldwell and indeed Naylor signings. On reflection I think the first 2 were initially signed primarily as squad players assuming that Petrov would stay and Balde would be fit. Perhaps Miller was likely to start given his fine performances for Scotland last season but in the forward/attacking midfield positions he was up against Zurawski, Maloney, McGeady, Jarosik, Beattie et al. It was only the sale of Petrov that freed up the money for Strachan to buy Gravesen and Jan. By this stage Balde was out for the long term allowing Caldwell to establish himself and Miller was an automatic selection also given Magics lethargic start to the season after returning from the WC, Maloneys hernia problem etc. So fair play to those 3 players for grabbing the jersey when the opening arose (likewise Sno) and taking their chances. Strachan operates on a policy of the player in form retaining possession of the jersey, hence they have stayed in the team and I am delighted with how things are going.
Re Miller; I said his performance against Benfica was world class (which it was) and hes reproduced that on occasion (most notably when scoring last year in a 1-1 draw against Italy when playing up front on his own). He has shown he has the ability and desire to perform at the highest level though I obviously recognise that he needs to produce this consistently to assume the tag of being a world class player. All I was arguing was that the basis of farmers contention was preposterous and I have tried to explain that with Kilkenny hurling and Etoo analogies yet he refuses to concede that it was a ridiculous argument. Glad to see that though you dont rate the SPL at least you can see there is no reasoned basis whatsoever for saying scoring goals in the Champions League means that the SPL is weak like farmer is doing. Again, I cant get my head around this line of thinking.
As for the final point about Pools successes I was merely stating that farmer appears to have taken this loss to Celtic rather badly and it affects his judgement when discussing them. Of course I was mightily impressed by Liverpools CL final victory and the fact that Celtic had beaten them convincingly not so long before (I recognise there was a change in manager and turnover of players since that tie) showed that Celtic can compete at the highest level, as they have further shown in the initial stages of the CL this season.
I just did:
Page 2 of this thread after Miller was man of the match against Benfica:
Farmer: “And Miller is only doing well because he is in Scotland. He was an average Championship player in England”
[quote=farmerinthecity ]
The standard of the SPL is rubbish - agreed?[/quote]
No. You don’t rate the Bundesliga either so I’m not sure there’s any point debating it with you.
Genuinely don’t undertand here: are you asking me for examples of the EPL hyping players? please let that be so
I just did:
Page 2 of this thread after Miller was man of the match against Benfica:
Farmer: “And Miller is only doing well because he is in Scotland. He was an average Championship player in England”
Where did I mention the Champions League in that quote? Its a seperate issue. I suggest you read my post beginning ‘I want to debate this’
Don’t get your point about the Bundesliga and how my view of that relates to the quality of the SPL
I was annoyed that you used such a futile and subjective argument to defend Miller in England. Sure the EPL may overhype players but is this the reason Miller didnt play in the Premiership? He is a Scottish international after all so he has a considerable amount of hype behind him
[quote=farmerinthecity ]
Where did I mention the Champions League in that quote? Its a seperate issue. I suggest you read my post beginning ‘I want to debate this’[/quote]
Eh read the name of the topic. The topic we are debating was raised by Bill O’Herlihy after the Benfica game. Most people laughed it off as ridiclous - you agreed with it. In a desperate effort to backtrack you claimed to be comparing his form in the SPL with his form with Wolves. When it was pointed out that he has only one goal in the SPL you said nothing.
For the record your post reads:
I want to debate this:
“Is Miller’s good form an indication of how weak the Scottish league is?”
This is the comment by Bill O’Herlihy that has sparked the debate. Rock/Bandage have said that this is an outrageous comment.
You knew well you were talking about the Champions League because it was a comment on a thread about the Champions League made by Bill after the Benfica match. Don’t pretend otherwise.
[quote=farmerinthecity ]
Don’t get your point about the Bundesliga and how my view of that relates to the quality of the SPL[/quote]
I don’t expect a rational and reasoned debate from somebody who doesn’t rate the Bundesliga as being anywhere comparable to the EPL - despite all the facts iamthelaw provided on the old board to prove the point. Your judgement of the standard of a league is highly questionable at best.
Sorry if I annoyed you. We have feck all members, we can’t afford for one of them to take the hump http://www.thefreekick.com/board/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif I’m not saying Miller didn’t play in the Premiership because the EPL overhypes players. However I am saying that the fact that Miller doesn’t play in the Premiership should not be viewed as a measure of his ability - indeed I consider it preposterous that you would in all seriousness argue that the fact that Miller doesn’t play in the EPL is proof he is somehow lacking in ability. He’s playing at a far higher standard than most of those guys could ever dream of. And he’s loving it!
No real need to repeat stuff here but you really are taking the biscuit (and the rest of the contents of the press) by trying to say the Champions League has nothing to do with this debate. Thats the WHOLE TOPIC of the thread. You had a misinformed and factually incorrect pop at Kenny Miller and you wont back down despite irrefutable evidence that totally contradicts what you wrote. At least have the decency to accept that.
At the end of the day and what I have argued with you from the very start was your comment that Millers only doing well because hes in Scotland. Several posts later and you refuse to accept his Champions League performances though I believe you watched the last Celtic game - its very childish and narrow minded to be honest.
I don’t think snatchy responses here and there are going to help this so I will be back later on when I can devote considerable time to this. Bandage loves Rock
Big Jan is loving it at Celtic. I hope he’s fit for Wednesday night:
Jan Vennegoor of Hesselink says he’d be happy to finish his career at Parkhead.
The 27-year-old has been an instant hit since his 3.5m from PSV Eindhoven. The Dutchman has scored four goals in six games and is relishing the SPL.
Currently contracted until 2009, and with the option of a further year, he is already thinking of ending his career here.
“When you get the Celtic bug, you have it for the rest of your life,” he said. "Maybe I want to play here for the rest of my football life.
"Scottish football means pure adulation. Before I went to Celtic, I had an idea how it would be, but it is bigger, more intense than I thought. Playing here is fantastic.
"My first game against Rangers was totally unbelievable there were 60,000 fans singing my name and I had goosebumps all over. I’m a normal guy from Twente Enschede, and this is fantastic.
"It improves my life in all kinds of ways. Every time I am walking in Glasgow, everyone wants a photo or have me sign an autograph. I can’t compare it to football in Holland.
“From the first minute of my debut I became part of the family. They are proud that I am playing for their club and that is a fantastic feeling.”
As for the SPL, Vennegoor says critics shouldn’t snipe before they’ve seen it.
"If people didn’t understand why I chose Celtic, I say: Come over to Glasgow and see it for yourself’.
"I hope that when I do leave, I am also spoken about with a good reputation and have become part of the history of Celtic.
“This is the best atmosphere I have ever played in. The fans shout louder than any other it’s an explosion of noise.”