its very simple really. all the big fat lads we have are generally posh over fed lard arses from rugby playing schools who simply discover that they can get through pe by leaning on other similarly fat sponge bellys.
in other countrys this role is played by hard bone headed farmers who are fat by dint of being fed large quantites of lamb chops, pigs arse and spuds as they grow. said individuals develop their pushing by shoving recalcitrant weanlings into cattle crushes.
this character in ireland plays full forward on the junior b team and is there to break the play up and to sort out anyone who hassles the young lad corner forward. this phenomenon is best illustrated by john hayes who only decided to play rugby when (at 19) he discovered that he couldnt even make the bruff junior b team and was left idle in the afternoon
Although this thread has been set up as a stick to beat the IRFU and rugby in general with a big problem is that any lad that shows decent ability underage will more than likely be used as a backrow forward or centre in underage teams, the issue is then that they are then trying to convert these lads into front rower once they reach their late teens/early 20ās and they are always going to struggle to pick up and match the skills that a top level international prop would have who has been playing and receiving quality technical coaching on playing in the front row since his early teens. I believe the emphasis has changes in recent years but this will take time to come to fruition. Lads will get away with this at AIL or even Provincial level but at the higher the level they go the more likely this is going to be exposed
A good case in point of this would be someone like Sean OāBrien, if he was born in South Africa or New Zealand and came through their underage systems he would probably have been developed as a hooker as opposed to a backrow forward
Why do you think young players that show potential are primarily used as back row forwards or centres then? Is it a case of not having enough numbers playing the game so these positions are prioritised at the expense of the front row? Why these positions and not the front row?
But how much technical coaching does one need to become a proficient pusher anyway? Seems like a convenient excuse to say weāre not good at pushing as a rugby football nation because our boys donāt concentrate on pushing until their late teens as opposed to their opponents whoāve been pushing since they were barely out of nappies.
i imagine the theory would be that the emphasis in schools rugby is on winning titles while scrums are not heavily contested so if you have a big lad you pick him where he can run over people rather than in the front row hence back row or centre
schools rugby is to blame. Pushing is not encouraged. Note that the few proficient pushers such as Ross & Hayes come from bullock ranching & jobbing families and progressed outside the schools codology.
BTW Hayes hit me a really mean kick in the calf 18 years ago in a football game and put me out of action for 3 weeks. I still hold a grudge against him, big cuddly man my bollox.
If a lad is a stand out player in his age group then it would make more sense to play him in the backrow as he would have far more influence on the game, it is the same in hurling that most underage sides will play their best player in the middle third of the field so he can influence the game as much as possible despite the fact that in the medium term or at adult level he may not have the skill set to play there but can be an effective player in his own age group.
The fact of the matter is that majority of underage coaches in all sports want to win and if there is a good possibility that they can win something this will always take precedence over developing players for the medium/long term, they will play their best players in the positions where they can exert most influence.
As larryduff played tighthead he would be a far better man to ask with regards technique but I donāt think it is just a case of bending and pushing, similar to the way that boxing isnāt just a case of throwing punches or taking a free kick or crossing a ball in soccer isnāt just a matter of putting your foot through the ball(if you want to be good at it)
Thatās the thing bandage. Iām pretty sure any sportsman could perfect the art of scrummaging in an afternoon. Itās not like youāre born as a tight head or hooker.
Iām not having a go but the Irish pack just gave up on Saturday. All they had to do was get a decent body position and push. This a professional operation who have time to practice this shit.
btw mate you bear a striking resemblance to Mike Ross when he has the scrummaging cap on.
I disagree with your last paragraph. Youāre comparing this carry on to sports. Fair enough there may be some technique involved but its very prescribed and formulaeic (sp). Even the ref is telling them what to do.
chewy makes an interesting comparison to football and boxing when he says thereās a technique thatās key to successful pushing, same as thereās technique involved in throwing a punch or striking a football. Taking that as read, is it a case of us not having the qualified coaching personnel to get the best out of our pushers or does it go back to not developing enough pushers (at an early enough age) to begin with?
Iād agree with this. As far as I can tell, rugby football is one of the only sports* whereby people who donāt possess any actual sporting skill or ability can make a career for themselves purely by virtue of being very tall or very fat. As dancarter says, we may have missed the boat with not taking up this activity. It also amuses me that the very fat lads are there to push but they canāt actually push very well. Itās like an Olympic swimmer being unable to swim or something.
I personally donāt regard rugby football as a sport.
The two Byrne twins and OāByrne from Clongowes will be Irelandās front row in three to four years given the right coaching. And thereās only one man to do that - the legendary T.W. Roland Meates, more comonly known simply as āRolyā, the worldās foremost scrummaging coach.
Maybe it is a case of coaching but a lad who has the natural ability is more than likely going to develop into a better player if he is getting the proper technical training at the age of 13 or 14 as opposed to a lad who has the ability but doesnāt get the specific training til he is the bones of 20, and could well have plenty of bad habits picked up from playing another position at that stage. As I said lads will get away with it at AIL and even Celtic League/English Premiership level but the higher the level the play and the better technical players they come up against the bigger the chance that their flaws will be exposed
[quote=āsid waddell, post: 667511ā]
The two Byrne twins and OāByrne from Clongowes will be Irelandās front row in three to four years given the right coaching. And thereās only one man to do that - the legendary T.W. Roland Meates, more comonly known simply as āRolyā, the worldās foremost scrummaging coach.[/quote]
They will in their bollix. These three lads will make more in a month at the bar than they would in a year playing rugby.
The fact that there is a limit of one metre of pushing at all underage levels and all 2nd grade levels of adult rugby means props are mollycoddled big time. It is also why, contrary to Chewys comments, that most schools rugby teams have three guys more suited to the back row playing in the front row. The scrums barely a factor so it makes sense to play more mobile players there.
You could go to plenty AIL games, or plenty Junior games and find far better scrummagers than Tom Court. The difference is Court has benefit of years of pro conditioning. I know a lad who would turn Court inside out, but heād do it for 2or 3 scrums, courts fitness would win out, and after 7 or 8 scrums heād be at risk of serious injury. Finding these lads and making them pros is the challenge but most of them just will never be unearthed because it takes so many years, and so many beatings to be a good prop.
Court had a shocker the last day but Iād still give plenty respect to anyone mental enough to go into the front row, as for converting back rows, v v few of them would have the bollocks to do it. Deciding at 20 that your willing to prop for the first time, and chance it against pros? Thereās a reason plenty people talk about it and very few do it.
I think it would be generally agreed that the scrum isnāt as big a factor in the Pro12 as it is in the Premiership. Unfortunately, you learn the most as a prop on the days when you get done over and coming across scrums like the English on Sat is a rarity for our top āpushersā.