https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP-Gs-xnG0g
Skype is no substitute for spending christmas together- Snide dig at Tase and Kev and all those living the dream âŠ
Fintan O Toole pulls no punches here.
In March 1987, Gerry Adams went to Buncrana to meet his niece Ăine and her mother. They told him Ăineâs father, Gerryâs brother Liam, had sexually abused her from the age of four. On his own account, he fully believed these allegations, though he âdidnât want to know the detailâ.
He was aware, as he told his brotherâs trial, âa person who would do such a thing is a danger to other childrenâ. He was âvery conscious, on the foot of such an allegation, that one has to protect other minorsâ.
Liam Adams by now had another young daughter with another woman. But Gerry Adams did not contact social services or the Garda in Donegal. On his return to Belfast next day, he did speak to a social worker who had been assigned to his brotherâs family. He told her nothing about the abuse.
In a TV interview in 2009, Gerry Adams said two things about what happened subsequently that were radically untrue. He said Liam Adams left Ireland and âbasically he was out of my life more or less for about the next 15 yearsâ. (He admitted under oath that âI concede it might not have been for 15 years; I acknowledge clearly and I have never failed to do so that I was in contact with himâ.)
In fact, Liam Adams got four different jobs between 1997 and 2006 that gave him unsupervised access to children and young people in two different areas where Sinn FĂ©in has a very strong presence and in constituencies that Gerry Adams has represented: the Muirhevnamor estate in Dundalk and west Belfast.
For most of this period, Gerry Adams knew with certainty that the allegations against his brother were true â in 2000, Liam Adams privately admitted to Gerry that he had molested his daughter.
Gerry Adams told the trial that he knew his brother was working with children in their âmid- to late-teensâ in Dundalk. (Ironically, Liam Adams, described as a âyouth community workerâ, was quoted in the Irish Independent in July 1998, alleging there was a paedophile ring in Dundalk: âWe have names of well-known business people who we are 100 per cent sure are involved.â)
He also knew Liam Adams subsequently worked with the youth club operated by Clonard monastery in Belfast, with which he himself had very close ties.
He claimed at the trial he told a priest (by then deceased) about his brotherâs history of abuse. Clonard Youth Centre issued a statement saying that it had no record of anyone giving it information on Liam Adamsâs history.
In December 2009, Gerry Adams told RTĂ radio that when, in 1997, he discovered Liam Adams was seeking a Sinn FĂ©in nomination to run in Louth, âI moved immediately both to stop that and to get him dumped out of Sinn FĂ©in without telling people whyâ.
The truth is that Liam Adams was never âdumped out of Sinn FĂ©inâ. A statement in the partyâs own newspaper, An Phoblacht, in 2010 acknowledged Liam Adams remained active in ârepublican circlesâ and that he in fact became chairman of Sinn FĂ©inâs Lower Andersonstown cumann for some years after 2000. The same statement also said, remarkably, that Gerry Adams was not aware his brother was the head of a cumann in his own constituency. I do not think that claim is credible.
At any point between 1987 and 2009, when he eventually made a statement to the PSNI, Gerry Adams, if he did not trust the police in Northern Ireland, could have gone to the Garda or to social services in the Republic, where Liam Adams worked for two significant periods with teenagers. He did not do so.
Into this context came a second disclosure of sexual abuse to Gerry Adams. In 2000, MaĂria Cahill had several meetings with him in which, she says, she told that she had been repeatedly raped by a senior IRA figure. This time, the allegations acquired a specifically political dimension â one of which both the British and Irish governments must have been aware.
[SIZE=3]Restorative justice[/SIZE]
At the time, as a quid pro quo for not kneecapping people, the IRA was being given significant involvement in the justice system through a scheme called community restorative justice.
In a 2005 public submission, the SDLP specifically referred to a report in the Sunday World in 2000 that a senior IRA figure in community restorative justice was an alleged rapist. This reference was to MaĂria Cahillâs allegations.
It is inconceivable that Gerry Adams was not aware both of Ms Cahillâs allegations and of their political import. Yet we are supposed to believe he never asked her about the details of the case.
If Enda Kenny, MicheĂĄl Martin, Joan Burton or Peter Robinson had this abysmal record on child protection and this history of evasive answers, we know what Sinn FĂ©in would have to say about it.
That not one of the partyâs strong-minded women can manage to say it about Gerry Adams is deeply creepy. If you think ordinary cronyism is bad, consider what this party will do to protect one of its own.
Has the ira figure been named by any paper?
Itâs Martin Morris.
[QUOTE=âJuhniallio, post: 1034353, member: 53â]
If Enda Kenny, MicheĂĄl Martin, Joan Burton or Peter Robinson had this abysmal record on child protection and this history of evasive answers, we know what Sinn FĂ©in would have to say about it[/QUOTE]
The fact is that they do. Fuck all happened about child abuse in this country until the mid 90s. There was wideslread child abuse going on on their watches as public representatives and while their parties were in power and they said nothing and did in the dail until it became fashionable to do so in the mid 90s. I find it imposdible to believe that noone approached them about child abuse prior to that.
Im far from a shinner but the stench of hypocrisy and on such a giant scale here, particulatly in light of the treatment of the whistleblowers is sickening. Id nearly vote shinner if they promised to bring a nutting squad down south and wipe out the hypocritical cunts in kildare st and indo towers
[QUOTE=âartfoley, post: 1034375, member: 179â]The fact is that they do. Fuck all happened about child abuse in this country until the mid 90s. There was wideslread child abuse going on on their watches as public representatives and while their parties were in power and they said nothing and did in the dail until it became fashionable to do so in the mid 90s. I find it imposdible to believe that noone approached them about child abuse prior to that.
Im far from a shinner but the stench of hypocrisy and on such a giant scale here, particulatly in light of the treatment of the whistleblowers is sickening. Id nearly vote shinner if they promised to bring a nutting squad down south and wipe out the hypocritical cunts in kildare st and indo towers[/QUOTE]
Weirdly understandable if very wrong viewpoint art, based not on adamsâ actions but on everybody else and a âtheyâre all cunts attitudeâ.
Being a lazy fuck is not the same as knowingly covering for child abusers.
[QUOTE=âJuhniallio, post: 1034409, member: 53â]Weirdly understandable if very wrong viewpoint art, based not on adamsâ actions but on everybody else and a âtheyâre all cunts attitudeâ.
Being a lazy fuck is not the same as knowingly covering for child abusers.[/QUOTE]
Itâs not as simple as âtheyâre all cunts.â Itâs that those who had genuine power and control over state institutions did nothing about widespread child abuse until they were shamed into action. Adams was the leader of an organization that had some power to stamp out child abuse, but the idea that everyone else can absolve themselves of responsibility if paramilitaries donât do their job of handing out punishments etc is absurd. Is Enda really happy to devolve responsibility for implementing justice to the IRA Army Council?
Thereâs also a very real danger of a hierarchy of victimhood on republican issues once the Dublin media get involved. McConville and McCartney are two previous examples of the Dublin media running with the personal impact stories of women suffering at the hands of the IRA. It may not be easy to forget about the past and move on but until there is a real willingness to do so then:
a) Gerry Adams will always claim he wasnât in the IRA (because FG (and Labour and FF to an extent) are stupid enough and reckless enough to try and come after him if he does admit it
b) Some personal issues will always grab media attention in Dublin, causing political storms over individuals and failing to recognize the importance of moving on in conflict resolution
c) Adams will remain as leader of SF because peace is still fragile and SF canât be seen to be weakening on âparamilitaryâ type issues. Getting Adams to acknowledge mistakes is one thing and he can bring northern republicans with him. Hounding Adams out of a job and getting Mary Lou to apologise for a killing in Belfast will cause a very dangerous split among republicans.
[QUOTE=âRocko, post: 1034432, member: 1â]Itâs not as simple as âtheyâre all cunts.â Itâs that those who had genuine power and control over state institutions did nothing about widespread child abuse until they were shamed into action. Adams was the leader of an organization that had some power to stamp out child abuse, but the idea that everyone else can absolve themselves of responsibility if paramilitaries donât do their job of handing out punishments etc is absurd. Is Enda really happy to devolve responsibility for implementing justice to the IRA Army Council?
Thereâs also a very real danger of a hierarchy of victimhood on republican issues once the Dublin media get involved. McConville and McCartney are two previous examples of the Dublin media running with the personal impact stories of women suffering at the hands of the IRA. It may not be easy to forget about the past and move on but until there is a real willingness to do so then:
a) Gerry Adams will always claim he wasnât in the IRA (because FG (and Labour and FF to an extent) are stupid enough and reckless enough to try and come after him if he does admit it
b) Some personal issues will always grab media attention in Dublin, causing political storms over individuals and failing to recognize the importance of moving on in conflict resolution
c) Adams will remain as leader of SF because peace is still fragile and SF canât be seen to be weakening on âparamilitaryâ type issues. Getting Adams to acknowledge mistakes is one thing and he can bring northern republicans with him. Hounding Adams out of a job and getting Mary Lou to apologise for a killing in Belfast will cause a very dangerous split among republicans.[/QUOTE]
Adams has been exposed as lying. There is political capital to be made - more victims will emerge - a second one has already emerged and Adams position will become untenable. SF have a chance at a run at government but this has the potential to derail that. I suspect that behind the scenes they are flapping about because nobody wants to go on camera or on the radio to defend this but they have to stay true to their internal logic that the IRA was a force for good in the community. Tricky one for them to spin/defend. Sooner or later Adams has to be offered up.
Itâs just typical of this country- mud slinging and name calling is the best our politicians can do or hope for. Itâs all personal attacks⊠Christ we are a shower of peasants and always will be.
@Rocko the first part of your post above is uncharacteristically dumb, youâve wildly missed the point.
I strongly disagree.
The parties in the south have managed to avoid making the abuse scandals in this country party-political. The same has happened in the UK with the BBC.
The only reason this has happened is because theyâre all culpable. What happened in this country for decades is extraordinary. There is no way the scale of abuse in this country could have taken place without the State and plenty of its institutions turning a blind eye repeatedly.
But when thereâs a case that doesnât seem to affect mainstream parties because it happened in the 6 counties and because the IRA were âasked to investigateâ the same politicians who cried crocodile tears over what happened on their watch are jumping all over it.
I donât have a problem with Adams being answerable for his actions. I do have a problem with one alleged victim of abuse causing a political storm for one party that suits the agenda of those who covered up a huge problem for decades.
[QUOTE=âRocko, post: 1034441, member: 1â]I strongly disagree.
The parties in the south have managed to avoid making the abuse scandals in this country party-political. The same has happened in the UK with the BBC.
The only reason this has happened is because theyâre all culpable. What happened in this country for decades is extraordinary. There is no way the scale of abuse in this country could have taken place without the State and plenty of its institutions turning a blind eye repeatedly.
But when thereâs a case that doesnât seem to affect mainstream parties because it happened in the 6 counties and because the IRA were âasked to investigateâ the same politicians who cried crocodile tears over what happened on their watch are jumping all over it.
I donât have a problem with Adams being answerable for his actions. I do have a problem with one alleged victim of abuse causing a political storm for one party that suits the agenda of those who covered up a huge problem for decades.[/QUOTE]
thatâs not the issue - the issue is that Sinn Fein criticised the Catholic Church for dealing with offenders âin houseâ and Sinn Fein/IRA engaged in the same practice of not reporting the matter to the authorities/not supporting the victims
SF behaved like the Church and adopted the Artie Ziff approach to things
SF made political capital from this issue and now it has arrived on their doorstep and they are having to deal with that
I am looking forward to some excellent example of âwhataboutery on this threadâ.
[QUOTE=âTheUlteriorMotive, post: 1034459, member: 2272â]thatâs not the issue - the issue is that Sinn Fein criticised the Catholic Church for dealing with offenders âin houseâ and Sinn Fein/IRA engaged in the same practice of not reporting the matter to the authorities/not supporting the victims
SF behaved like the Church and adopted the Artie Ziff approach to things
SF made political capital from this issue and now it has arrived on their doorstep and they are having to deal with that[/QUOTE]
The IRA told her to get councilling and go to the police, the police investigated, no one was found guilty.
what should they have done differently?
[QUOTE=âThe Selfish Giant, post: 1034472, member: 80â]The IRA told her to get councilling and go to the police, the police investigated, no one was found guilty.
what should they have done differently?[/QUOTE]
Your cherry picking the information your using pal. How many years after the initial IRA investigation were the police informed? Did the IRA have the appropriate doctors etc to carry out medical examinations on the victim when she initially reported her abuse?
Itâs an extremely tough one however as of the RUC had been informed would a criminal investigation have been carried out or would MI6 have protected the abuser in exchange for information?
No 1
As referenced in a previous thread if she went to the IRA/MI6/RUC or anyone else isnât she essentially going to all 3 of them anyway !
[QUOTE=âTheUlteriorMotive, post: 1034459, member: 2272â]thatâs not the issue - the issue is that Sinn Fein criticised the Catholic Church for dealing with offenders âin houseâ and Sinn Fein/IRA engaged in the same practice of not reporting the matter to the authorities/not supporting the victims
SF behaved like the Church and adopted the Artie Ziff approach to things
SF made political capital from this issue and now it has arrived on their doorstep and they are having to deal with that[/QUOTE]
To flip it around, are FF, LAB and FG fit to jump on this given the way whistleblowers were ignored and the volume of children raped while in state( i.e during times when FF, FG. and lab were in power) care
If a parliamentary member of FF, FG, LAB tried to deal with something like this âin houseâ and summoned the victim for questioning they would be gone.
Yes the abuse was institutional at a State level but that was to do with the power of the Catholic Church in the South. No politician dared go up against the Church. Many of the abused were also marginalised and nobody to fight their corner.
The issue here is that SF/IRA have been exposed doing something they criticised others for doing. In those circumstances then a head has to be offered which SF are having trouble doing given the legacy. Other parties have to be laughing as they are able to make SF come out and try and defend the indefensible and each time they do it they lose credibility. Adams is caught by his lies around the IRA membership. Can he resign because of the IRA actions of which he says he had no authority or does he hang tough and damage the party.
A politicians first instinct is self preservation but as most recently seen in the Shatter case, these things build momentum and as more revelations emerge the pressure to go builds to a crescendo. Look at who from SF is on radio and TV on this - they are also being offered up to an extent. If I was handling SF I would keep Pearse Doherty a million miles away from this as you donât want next leader tainted.
Without reading the post, Iâm going to guess itâs you who is wrong.
[QUOTE=âTheUlteriorMotive, post: 1034512, member: 2272â]If a parliamentary member of FF, FG, LAB tried to deal with something like this âin houseâ and summoned the victim for questioning they would be gone.
Yes the abuse was institutional at a State level but that was to do with the power of the Catholic Church in the South. No politician dared go up against the Church. Many of the abused were also marginalised and nobody to fight their corner.
The issue here is that SF/IRA have been exposed doing something they criticised others for doing. In those circumstances then a head has to be offered which SF are having trouble doing given the legacy. Other parties have to be laughing as they are able to make SF come out and try and defend the indefensible and each time they do it they lose credibility. Adams is caught by his lies around the IRA membership. Can he resign because of the IRA actions of which he says he had no authority or does he hang tough and damage the party.
A politicians first instinct is self preservation but as most recently seen in the Shatter case, these things build momentum and as more revelations emerge the pressure to go builds to a crescendo. Look at who from SF is on radio and TV on this - they are also being offered up to an extent. If I was handling SF I would keep Pearse Doherty a million miles away from this as you donât want next leader tainted.[/QUOTE]
The fact of the matter is that a lot of the covering up was done âin houseâ by TDs in those days because without their collusion, the abuse wouldnt have gone on so long.
Did the other parties want SF to âdisappearâ the alleged perpetrator? Seems a bit odd when they constany scream jean mcconville