The Official TFK Ireland 1912-1923 Thread

Classic Irish Times book review here. Rubbishing a scholarly work on the basis of the writings of proven falsifier and fantasist Peter Hart, because the book doesn’t suit their agenda.

Home from the front to face another war
Demobilised servicemen returning to Ireland from the Great War found an island increasingly engulfed by revolutionary violence
DAVID FITZPATRICK
As a direct consequence of the Great War at least 30 million people, mostly men, were removed from battle zones to almost every country in Europe and many beyond. A hundred thousand of them came to Ireland. They made the journey in organised contingents, without the help of people-smugglers, although others had incurred fearful risks by fleeing the battlefields and 10 million had died. Tens of millions more had been prematurely withdrawn, mutilated, wounded, or shell-shocked; few of those who lasted the distance were untouched. These men, though they had fought for opposing armies, were united by one overwhelming experience that no civilian could share or fully comprehend. Scarred by war’s brutality, they had little in common with those in the host countries, where economic dislocation and rising unemployment made their arrival disruptive and, for many, unwelcome. They were not refugees, although the war also displaced millions of civilians. They were demobilised servicemen coming home – only to find “home” transformed in their absence.

The fate of Ireland’s war veterans is one of the least understood and most understudied stories of modern Irish history. Returning to an island increasingly engulfed by revolutionary violence followed by partition and civil war, they considerably outnumbered the IRA. One’s neighbours were more likely to have served in the Great War than the War of Independence. Yet it was the republicans who cornered the historical and commemorative market in southern Ireland, while veterans were politically sidelined.

The southerners who had answered “Ireland’s call” after August 1914 were mainly Catholic supporters of Home Rule within the British Empire, but by 1918 Sinn Féin’s ascendancy had prompted most nationalists to repudiate Irish participation and vilify those who had betrayed their patrimony by accepting the king’s shilling. These latent tensions between veterans and civilians were bound to produce further conflict and suffering as the veterans came to terms with their unexpectedly marginal status in the new Ireland. Historians confront three big questions: how much did veterans suffer during the revolution, how badly were they treated by their neighbours and rulers in the new state, and to what extent did they form a cohesive community?

Paul Taylor is the first to devote a book to Irish veterans – Heroes Or Traitors? Experiences of Southern Irish Soldiers Returning from the Great War, 1919-1939 – although many of his findings duplicate or expand on the work of other scholars, such as Jane Leonard. (Here I must declare an interest in the subject, having spent years living with Leonard and her veterans!) The book is based on an Oxford doctoral thesis, and thesis tunnel vision shows in what Taylor chooses to ignore or downplay: veterans’ associations, commemoration, Northern Ireland. (The story of northern veterans merits sustained comparative treatment.) Few Irish archives or newspapers are cited, many relevant studies are absent from the bibliography, and Taylor is unduly dismissive of previous scholarship in asserting his own originality.

The strength of Heroes Or Traitors? lies in its methodical use of personal documentation in selected archives, which are extensively extracted if thinly contextualised. Taylor looks at the quite generous provision of housing for veterans, already the subject of three studies, chronicling interminable battles between tenants in the Killester estate for ex-soldiers and the UK-funded administrative trust. He makes good use of pension files to suggest that southern Irish veterans did better than their British counterparts in provision for the disabled. Taylor echoes Leonard’s finding that the new state treated veterans fairly well, in that it did not interfere with material benefits funded by the hereditary enemy. This did not apply to civil service posts, to which veterans in the UK had preferential access. But tens of thousands of southern war veterans were briefly and controversially enrolled in the new National Army.

Taylor’s most provocative contention is that veterans, as a class, were not victimised during the revolution. As more than 100 ex-servicemen were murdered, and hundreds more sought compensation for injuries to property or the person, scholars such as the late Peter Hart detected parallels between the victimisation of veterans and of other “marginal groups”, such as Protestants. In each case it is seldom possible to prove that victims of violence were targeted solely or primarily because they were veterans (or Protestants). Their attackers may also have been motivated by greed, envy, personal grudges or the belief that the victims were helping the enemy. But if ex-servicemen were profoundly distrusted by republicans, and if they were targeted out of proportion to their numbers, it is reasonable to conclude that anti-veteran sentiment, like sectarianism, was among the forces driving republican violence.

“Informers”
To test his claim Taylor examines two groups of records: testimony for the Bureau of Military History incriminating 40 war veterans as “informers”, and compensation claims by “southern loyalists” whom he has identified as war veterans. Unsurprisingly, IRA witnesses maintained that most of the alleged informers (of whom 33 were “executed”) were indeed “guilty”. This reveals little or nothing about the extent to which republican suspicions and assumptions about veterans as a class led to persecution of veterans who were not in fact informers. Taylor is not the first gullible scholar to exaggerate the accuracy of republican intelligence. No reference is made to a notorious hit list drawn up by the 1st Southern Division in early 1922, which named many veterans as informers to be executed or punished on the resumption of hostilities yet seldom provided the required evidence apart from hearsay and accusations of “consorting with the enemy”. Nor does Taylor analyse other evidence of pre-truce attacks on veterans in the press, compensation records or court reports.

Of greater interest is Taylor’s methodical extraction of compensation files for southern loyalists, held at the UK national archives in Kew and already sifted by many scholars. Having inspected all 3,000-4,000 case files, a barely credible feat of masochism, Taylor identifies 262 claims relating to civilian war veterans, of which “only” 73 cited war service as one of the required proofs of loyalty. Who can tell how many others have escaped even Taylor’s vigilance? His illuminating summaries of individual claims demonstrate that many veterans were indeed unpopular for various reasons apart from war service. Yet Taylor’s analysis raises problems. First, compensation was available only for injuries incurred after July 1921, thus excluding the entire revolutionary period during which veterans were most alienated, vulnerable, and at risk. Second, although the terms did not preclude applications from “loyal” Home Rulers, the Irish Grants Committee was clearly biased in favour of unionists. As only about 15 per cent of those enlisting from the 26 counties were Protestants, most victimised veterans had little prospect of securing compensation.

Crucially, Taylor’s denial of republican hostility to veterans as a category seems unsustainable. Abomination of “traitors” who joined the forces was a major propaganda theme for Sinn Féin from its foundation; “separation women” were repeatedly abused; local boycotts were directed against veterans; and republican councils often discriminated against them when allocating funds for jobs, land, or housing. On November 30th, 1922, Liam Lynch, republican chief of staff in the civil war, ordered that “all ex-British Army officers and men who joined F.S. [Free State] Army since Dec. 6, 1921” should be “shot at sight”. Twice citing this order, Taylor perversely implies that it did not reflect animus against war veterans in general. Determined to affirm their national credentials, he declares that “many ex-servicemen joined the IRA” (100 or so), and that “a majority became Fianna Fáil supporters” (an unverifiable claim). As in the debate about republican sectarianism, historians will continue to differ about the force of hostility to veterans as a factor in republican violence. Taylor has reopened but not resolved this thorny issue.

Taylor concludes that veterans as a group were neither heroes nor traitors, being a mixed bunch embodying broader communal divisions of class, politics, and religion. Never does he grasp how crucial the war experience was for those who endured it, forging a powerful bond of comradeship refreshed in pubs or clubs and consecrated on Remembrance Day, transcending social and political differences. This is a book about war veterans that scarcely mentions what they did in the war. Though neither the first nor the last word on a momentous topic, it is nonetheless a substantial contribution that should provoke others to invigorate the debate.

David Fitzpatrick, professor of modern history at Trinity College, Dublin, is the author of Descendancy: Irish Protestant Histories since 1795

See more at www.irishtimes.com

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**The heroes of 1916 were economically clueless and the nation paid for it
**

As we are about to embark on a year of celebrating 1916 and the birth of the nation, maybe it’s a good idea to stand back and ask what 1916 did for the economy.

The last time I checked, you couldn’t buy bread with slogans, speeches and flags, so isn’t it a good idea to ask what happened to living standards and economic opportunity after the Rising?
What was the economic and financial backdrop to the Rising? And what economic policies were followed to ensure that the pledge to “cherish all the children of the nation equally” (which was intended to refer to Unionists rather than the poor) was underpinned by financial reality?

When I learned about 1916 and the national struggle, economics was never mentioned other than scant reference to Horace Plunkett and his co-operative movements. Because this Plunkett, a former Unionist MP, was often confused with his relative Joseph Plunkett, a Proclamation signatory, there was always a vague sense that some Plunkett who was involved in national politics at the time had something to do with economics.

That was about the height of the economics - which is unusual because the story of revolutions tends, typically, to have a big economic component. The story of our revolution, as told in school, is one of rich Britain subjugating poor Ireland. This sounds good, but it’s not entirely accurate.

Work by economists Kevin O’Rourke and Ronan Lyons reveals another, more nuanced, story. In fact, the decades leading up to the Rising were a period of relative prosperity for those people who stayed in Ireland. They were decades of rapid social improvement. I know it sounds counterfactual, but it’s true.

Take for example, the lot of Irish skilled workers and tradesmen, such as carpenters and fitters. During the Famine they earned about 90pc of what their English counterparts did. This ratio remained more or less unchanged, but in those decades leading up to 1913, both English and Irish tradesmen saw rapid increases in their wages. The Empire project enriched all of Britain and Ireland. In the later part of the 19th century both Irish and English tradesmen got richer together.

However, we see much greater upward mobility in the wages of unskilled Irish workers and farm labourers, which actually rose rapidly after the Famine. This goes totally against the national narrative. I am not saying that people weren’t poor, but they were beginning to get richer.
In 1845, Irish unskilled workers earned half of what their counterparts were earning in Britain - by 1913 they were earning three quarters.

This seems counterintuitive because these were years of natural catastrophe and mass emigration - and surely that should be the key metric for any assessment of economic viability. But the fact is that those workers who stayed in Ireland did well after the Famine. When there are fewer workers to do the work, their wages tend to rise, and that’s what happened. Therefore, strange as it may sound, the typical economic reasons for a Rising, which traditionally should be a deterioration in the plight of the local people ahead of the Revolution, were not present in Ireland.

In addition, wealth, which in agricultural Ireland primarily stemmed from land ownership, was also undergoing a transformation. The various Land Acts from 1870 to 1909 began the mass transfer of land from the Anglo Irish aristocracy to the local farmers. This too would have had a profound positive impact on the wealth of the local population. Finally, the Irish stock market, which if the country had been an economic basket case would have been falling, actually doubled in the late Victorian era. Indeed some household names such as Arnotts were quoted at the time, revealing a buoyant retail sector in Dublin.

During this period, we had an Irish Home Rule party that held the balance of power in Britain and could therefore extract concessions from British imperialists who were looting the globe at the time. As a result, large-scale sanitation and infrastructural projects were undertaken such as bringing clean water to Dublin from Roundwood Reservoir. (By the way, there is a statue of the dude behind that initiative, which saved the lives of thousands of poor Dublin children - more than Jim Larkin ever did - situated just behind “Big Jim” on O’ Connell Street. Can you name him?)

All this taken together explains how in 1913, on the eve of the Rising, far from being poor, Ireland was actually a rich country - one of the richest in Europe. Income per head was on a par with the Scandinavian countries of Norway, Sweden and Finland.

Seventy years after the Rising in 1986, Irish income per head was half the income of the Scandinavians. What happened?

Did our population expand rapidly so that our income per head fell - which would have been the inverse of what had happened between 1850 and 1900, when wages rose because the population fell? No, in fact, the Irish population kept falling up until the 1970s.

Emigration remained at ridiculously high levels. Consider this: in the 1950s, we know that 450,000 Irish people emigrated to England alone. That is not taking into account the people who went to America, Canada or Australia. And we are talking about a decade when the rest of the world boomed. In the 1980s, again, when our major trading partners - the English-speaking world - boomed, we went backwards. This is hard to do.

Since then, things have got much better. In fact, since the mid-1990s, even despite the crash, Ireland’s living standards have increased dramatically.

However, the fact remains - the first 80 years of this State were an economic disaster.
I am talking here about the ability of the new State to look after its own people, to match the rhetoric of nationalism with some semblance of achievement. Two out of three people born in the country in the 1930s - the first real generation of the new State - ended up living abroad. Just take that in.

I wonder will any of these individual stories be referenced in the many centenary celebrations that lie ahead?

Don’t get me wrong: I wouldn’t trade my Irish citizenship for anything and I believe in a nation’s right to make its own mistakes. And yet we should acknowledge that the people who took over this country in the aftermath of 1916 in our name were about as economically literate as the
Taliban, and it wasn’t until these men were dead that this country began to deliver economically for its citizens.
Irish Independent

The bolded bits are the best parts

So McWilliams is saying we should continued to take the Kings shilling and fumble in the greasy till.

People who have never run a country find it difficult to run a country shocker.

Sweep sweep

Bit harsh on the heroes of 1916. In their defence it’s very difficult to implement economic policy when you are dead.

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The Commander of Bolands Mills died did he? Oh what could have been for him, great potential that lad

Let’s have a revolt, overthrow our colonial masters and establish our own state… Hold up, before we go to war and free our people of 800 hundred years of foreign administration, have we an economic plan in place?

Monthy python esque.

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A clamping :clap:

What opportunities to influence economic policy had Pearse, Connolly etc.?

  1. What policies did they have apart from Romantic notions. Well Connolly was a Marxist but Pearse?

  2. the point about the “heroes” of 1916 is that it was the men of and descendants of 1916 that led this country for decades and all 4 major parties take some ownership of it.

McWilliams point is that we were brainwashed in school with propaganda around 1916 and there is no nuanced discussion of events surrounding it.

Another one missing the point.

is he not discussing it as a specific reference to the economic value of it? I dont ever remember any school history or any other type of historical reference that went on about the successful economics of it all. So I’m not sure how we were brainwashed when there was pretty much no discussion of it at all in those terms. If you want to say that the education and historical events of it pretty much ignored the economical issues of it all, then fine, but to say we were brainwashed about it is incorrect from that article.

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I’m all for a proper discussion but that article is lazy nonsense. Cherry picking stats that suit.

Skilled workers are one thing. What about the unskilled ones, what % of the country were skilled workers?
Why was there a need for the 1913 lockout only a few years before when things were going so great?
If you were only 10% better off in the UK where cost of living was higher why was there so much emigration over there?
Why was there emigration full stop? One of the points he makes is that the population fell from 1845 until 1970. Well 76 of those years were outside the remit of the Irish Government vs 59 within.
Why were TB deaths 50% higher in Ireland in 1912 than in the UK?
Why was the infant mortality rate so high vs the UK?

The 1920’s were recovery from war.
The 1930’s were the greatest global depression ever seen.
The late 1930’s were the trade war due to our refusal to continue to pay the British Government annuities. Annuities which hampered our economic development.

Dev was undoubtedly an economic dinosaur and I’m happy to ridicule him if you’d like. But ill thought out revisionist bollox like that article are nonsense.

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Of course it is brainwashing. It is deliberately ignoring the salient facts to fit into the fact that the major political parties in this country trace their history to the 1916 Rising. The slant of discussion is that these men were heroes and Ireland was downtrodden.

Connolly’s Marxism isn’t even really discussed beyond it being an additive to the discussion over the Lockout.

From the article;

In 1845, Irish unskilled workers earned half of what their counterparts were earning in Britain - by 1913 they were earning three quarters.

Industrial unrest was not unique to Ireland.

The early to mid 1920s and the Lemass year’s were the only half decent years of administration in this country before the 90s. Independence fucked us.

Didn’t the Scandinavian economies also significantly outperform the UK economy in this respect during the same period?

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Jesus, that’s some clamping.

:grinning:

Look it comes down to this. I’d rather live in abject Irish poverty* that under some English king.
I know it’s hard for private rugby school lickspittles to get their noggin around that.

  • Maneens like Tadhg O’Riggins, who know the price of everything and the value of nothing, will only ever measure poverty in financial terms anyway. We were never really “poor”.