Certainly when Stringer replaced Tierney with Ireland and Munster the biggest thing he introduced was the speed of decision making at the bottom of the ruck. He just got there and fired it out and the ball was quick every time. His pass was decent too but it was the end of the ponderous Tierney era that made all the difference.
I think he lost a bit of that under the latter stages of the EOS era and neither Reddan nor O’Leary have done much to change it.
Caught the first half on the radio and the second on the tv… it was extremely un-enjoyable fair. ROG was poor but still had the class to win the match for us. Also, he was certainly not the only one engaged in verbals with the Argies, one of the lads who was at the match said it was the dirtiest game of international rugby he has seen. Thanks fook i didnt take the tickets I was offered. Thought POC, Wallace, Hayes and Ferris were the pick… Best was muck as well, Kearny has been poor enough as well, probably suffering from that stupid Cheika coont leaving him on the bench for the first part of the season.
r.e. ROG’s comments last week, I thought they were spot on really, and were not a dig at anybody, but Hook has gone to town on them and on ROG’s subsequent performance afterwards. This stems from an interview ROG did on TodayFM after his book lauch. When asked if he facied a career as a pundit a la Hook after rugby ROG said no, and followed it up by saying he doesnt pay any head to Hooks ‘analysis’ as he never achieved anything himself as either a coach or a player and was just trying to etch a living from being contraversial. Hook has obviously taken umbrage to this. He is also getting grumpier by the day, he hung up on Ger Gilroy the other moring after he cut across him… Clown if you ask me.
what is the style/gameplan/type of rugby that ireland are attempting to play under kidney?
if eos was in charge of that he would have been crucified in yesterdays press, at least under eos you knew how it would be played,it would be conservative and it would be risk free, under kidney its looking the same old shite except worse.
and i dont mean passion and all that crap which peopope seem to think is the solution to everything, i mean a bit of continuity and a few passes sticking and few lines being run, where is it?
will ireland be playing ‘puke rugby’ into the next wc?
[quote=“HBV*”]what is the style/gameplan/type of rugby that ireland are attempting to play under kidney?
if eos was in charge of that he would have been crucified in yesterdays press, at least under eos you knew how it would be played,it would be conservative and it would be risk free, under kidney its looking the same old shite except worse.
and i dont mean passion and all that crap which peopope seem to think is the solution to everything, i mean a bit of continuity and a few passes sticking and few lines being run, where is it?
will ireland be playing ‘puke rugby’ into the next wc?[/quote]
Hooks analysis has been poor from day one, he loved ROG for years, remember his “O’ Gara, O’ Gara O’Gara, where is O’ Gara”, in reference to him not being on the Irish team.
You are also right about Kidney HBV (and that EO’S would be destroyed in the press), but Kidney’s on his honeymoon period and he got the results that was expected of him, 2 wins and beaten handy by the AB’s. I mean us here who probably don’t know rugby as much as Kidney and his employers, and the pundits realise that there is always the chance of getting tonked by the Blacks.
If he went through the 6N with the same plans though i think he would start to feel the pessure. I have a feeling he just wanted to get over this series, get the seeding and then have a look at things. Kidney is nothing if he’s not practical. A new style for these games could have cost us dearly. I can’t see ROG being on the team come next World Cup, but we@d probably have lost saturday if he wasn’t playing.
I honestly don’t know enough about the others really to say do they have the potential (Sexton, Keatly, Hickey etc) to be even decent out-halves. From a few game i’ve seen i think Sexton is at the same standard as ROg was when he was that age, so maybe there is some hope there. We’ll need back row as well. Heaslips form at International level is worrying, Wallace will hardly be around, Quinlan won’t be, Jennings is a little shy of top International standard. If you don’t have quality back row and out-half then you can have all the Kearneys, Fitzgeralds and Earls in the world, you won’t win.
Heaslip, while poor against New Zealand, was very good on Saturday in my opinion. He had some big hits and forced a good few turnovers. I thought himself and the stricken Wallace were the pick of the Irish players.
[quote=“dancarter”]I know your a former no 9 so interested to see you say this. Thought his service was far better last week than yesterday to be fair but think he gets it away pretty quickly. Boss and others take a step, TOL doesnt have this problem IMHO.
Time between ball leaving his hands and hitting ROG is slow, but Id say time between ball leaving ruck and hitting ROG is just as quick as Reddan/Stringer and far quicker than Boss.
If you see what I mean? Ball isnt in his hands for long at all.[/quote]
Dan
Don’t agree with you at all regarding TOL. The only 9 that we have that consistently “clears” the ball from the ruck is Stringer. All the rest gain possession, take a step and then pass to the first receiver. Stringer usually sweeps the ball away in one movement, its the sort of thing that you learn as a 13/14 year old at scrumhalf.
Like Strings I’m not the biggest lad and had to have a top pass to compensate. I can’t count the amount of time that I spent practising my passing as a young lad. Quick wristy passing is the fundamental skill of a scrumhalf and I’m amazed at how many at International level are pretty poor at it.
Passing aside all the other 9s are superior to Stringer, they all can make a break and play more effective defence. TOL has improved his passing over the past year but he should seriously concentrate on it if he wants to be an International level player.
Having said all of this, TOL’s passing was one factor (albeit major) in the poor back play. The other was that we played too much on the gain line. ROG should have played deeper and aligned the back line accordingly to give an extra fraction to get the ball wide in space.
WBY
i was shocked at neil francis claiming yesterday that heaslip is the first name on an irish teamsheet.
maybe its because there is no straight alternative for no 8.
i think the man has failed to step up to be honest
[quote=“treaty_exile”]if i may join the old 9’s club, would another aspect be the way stringer marshalls rucks, sets up pods and demands ball much more urgently than o’leary? he may have to take some of the credit for the quick ball produced on tuesday, o’leary still seems almost apologetic at the base of a ruck sometimes. he extracted the ball a few times yesterday like he was taking a roast out of the oven.
speed of TOL’s pass might be only slightly slower, but it takes forever for him get rid of it. and he does have a habit of stepping when he’s not sure/confident about the next move.[/quote]
TE
Not sure if Stringer is mouthier than the others, would be surprised especially when you look at Reddan who seems to spend an inordinate amount of time marshalling the forwards to set up pods.
I’m not sure is it anything more than Stringer sees getting the ball away from the ruck quickly as his primary purpose where as the others are thinking about passing, kicking or having a go themselves. Think there was one stage in the first half where TOL broke right from a ruck in midfield and couldn’t make up his mind what to do, I think he dummied to no one and kicked a ball into the wingers hands. Because Stringer gets milled out of it if he breaks he just concentrates on getting the ball away quickly.
Dan is correct in saying that the spend of presentation of the ball is important and that Stringer got a lot of quick ball on Tuesday last,
Just my tuppence worth.
WBY
[quote=“W.B. Yeats”]Dan
Don’t agree with you at all regarding TOL. The only 9 that we have that consistently “clears” the ball from the ruck is Stringer. All the rest gain possession, take a step and then pass to the first receiver. Stringer usually sweeps the ball away in one movement, its the sort of thing that you learn as a 13/14 year old at scrumhalf.
Like Strings I’m not the biggest lad and had to have a top pass to compensate. I can’t count the amount of time that I spent practising my passing as a young lad. Quick wristy passing is the fundamental skill of a scrumhalf and I’m amazed at how many at International level are pretty poor at it.
Passing aside all the other 9s are superior to Stringer, they all can make a break and play more effective defence. TOL has improved his passing over the past year but he should seriously concentrate on it if he wants to be an International level player.
Having said all of this, TOL’s passing was one factor (albeit major) in the poor back play. The other was that we played too much on the gain line. ROG should have played deeper and aligned the back line accordingly to give an extra fraction to get the ball wide in space.
WBY[/quote]
Fair points WBY. Thought myself his service was excellent against NZ but wouldnt argue the toss. He isnt a natural 9 like Stringer thats for sure, not sure did he play 9 at schools level or was he converted when he turned pro, but he hasn’t even one season as afirst choice scrum half yet. It will be hard to change habits at his age.
I was never a massive Stringer fan but can see what he brought to teams over the years. First things first no 9 needs to be able to pass and he had the best pass in Europe for many seasons.
I thought (before tue night) htat his career was over to be honest. he has been putrid anytime iv seen him this year and had started stepping like Boss et al, might be just the impact of the ELV but I felt his confidence was gone.
he has the stomach for a battle though so we mightnt have seen the last of him Id say.
[quote=“HBV*”]i was shocked at neil francis claiming yesterday that heaslip is the first name on an irish teamsheet.
maybe its because there is no straight alternative for no 8.
i think the man has failed to step up to be honest[/quote]
Francis is a fucking clown and always has been. I read his column for novelty facto and thats it. Once or twice in the last 5 years have I agreed with one of his columns.
I think its gas though that he is the only commentator who I know of that has mentioned the Ulster quota, and it now appears to be common enough currency that this is fact!! Maybe it is but dont hear anyone else but him banging on about it, he fucking hates Ulster. And Ulster hates him!
Harsh on Heaslip, outfought the last day but he has been good for Ireland since first capped and I would definately persevere with him. He isnt as big a ball carrier as Wallace but hes far better to link the play.
You’ll usually find that Heaslip does a huge amount of work off the ball supporting his own players like any good back row. Have a look at the replay of the try from Saturday and see who was there to support Bowe going over the line. He’s been doing it for years but doesnt get the press for it. He had a flat game against New Zealand but is still the best natural number 8 this country has. Reads a game as good as Foley used to but doesnt possess his try scoring ability.
He’s still relatively young as well and maybe 2-3 years away from his peak.
[quote=“Mac”]You’ll usually find that Heaslip does a huge amount of work off the ball supporting his own players like any good back row. Have a look at the replay of the try from Saturday and see who was there to support Bowe going over the line. He’s been doing it for years but doesnt get the press for it. He had a flat game against New Zealand but is still the best natural number 8 this country has. Reads a game as good as Foley used to but doesnt possess his try scoring ability.
He’s still relatively young as well and maybe 2-3 years away from his peak.[/quote]
Hopefully, because we are running out of guys at the moment. Those of my rugby friends who watch every game going say that James Coughlan isn’t up to it, and that the jury is out a little on Neil Ronan. I know they were super tuesday night, but could they sustain something near that standard consistantly? I doubt it.
Best thing that could happen would be for Munster to move Leamy back to 6. Would leave us with a potential international back row of Leamy, Jennings and Heaslip which would be strong and each of them a specialist in their own position.
They used to say that about Easterby for years. He does an amount of “unseen work”…then they figured out that he actually was shite.
Go to a game and watch him lad. Then come back to me.
Ignoring positions the back rows are probably rated:
Jennings is a distance down the list. Even removing Wallace and Quinlan for long-term reasons you’d still end up with Heaslip, Leamy and Ferris playing first and one of the two abrasive lads going seven. Not ideal but I’d say that’s the current position and Jennings needs to play his way further up the pecking order. The fact that he’s a “specialist” seven only counts for so much if his ability is still in question.
ah no…I know fcuk all about rugby but I thought that unseen work thing was the greatest bag of toss ever tbh.
[quote=“W.B. Yeats”]TE
Not sure if Stringer is mouthier than the others, would be surprised especially when you look at Reddan who seems to spend an inordinate amount of time marshalling the forwards to set up pods.
I’m not sure is it anything more than Stringer sees getting the ball away from the ruck quickly as his primary purpose where as the others are thinking about passing, kicking or having a go themselves. Think there was one stage in the first half where TOL broke right from a ruck in midfield and couldn’t make up his mind what to do, I think he dummied to no one and kicked a ball into the wingers hands. Because Stringer gets milled out of it if he breaks he just concentrates on getting the ball away quickly.
Dan is correct in saying that the spend of presentation of the ball is important and that Stringer got a lot of quick ball on Tuesday last,
Just my tuppence worth.
WBY[/quote]
yes, i wouldn’t argue with that, but there is a contrast between TOL and stringer when it comes to demanding ball, i’ve never once seen o’leary use his foot to tidy things up if a ball is slow coming out. i’d put it down to experience, he’s not asserting himself fully yet, but i could be way off the mark here as i rarely get within earshot of a ruck.
i know what you’re saying about reddan, and it seems to work for him a lot better at wasps than it does with ireland (more used to dealing with the pack i suppose)
reddan probably suffered more than most during the WC due to the pack getting destroyed at rucks, neither himself nor stringer have been quite the same player since (Stringer only turning it around in 1 game so far, having been awful aginst montauban and the few other occasions i’ve seen him)
TOL seems hesitant at times, i remember his break that you mentioned, and it’s not the first time he seemed to be winging it on the pitch. could be one of those things that improves with a run in the team, i have a feeling that’s what kidney is setting him up for.
[quote=“therock67”]Ignoring positions the back rows are probably rated:
Jennings is a distance down the list. Even removing Wallace and Quinlan for long-term reasons you’d still end up with Heaslip, Leamy and Ferris playing first and one of the two abrasive lads going seven. Not ideal but I’d say that’s the current position and Jennings needs to play his way further up the pecking order. The fact that he’s a “specialist” seven only counts for so much if his ability is still in question.[/quote]
I would agree with you rocko…But I think Jennings is destined to be a bit part player with Ireland TBH…
Leamy could well be back at 6 for Munster if the new lad Williams starts well as I believe he is a specialised no. 8…
On a side point about Heaslip, does anyone else think that he looks like he is carrying a bit of extra weight or conditioning or is it just me…
[quote=“The Puke”]I would agree with you rocko…But I think Jennings is destined to be a bit part player with Ireland TBH…
Leamy could well be back at 6 for Munster if the new lad Williams starts well as I believe he is a specialised no. 8…
On a side point about Heaslip, does anyone else think that he looks like he is carrying a bit of extra weight or conditioning or is it just me…[/quote]
Puke
As someone else said, Heaslip is a bit like Foley in that he reads the game very well, he’s a good footballer and makes good yards for Leinster. It would be good if he could translate that form to the National team, but its earlyish days still for him. Another decent 6N campaign could see him close to the Lions which could really open his eyes to what the best are up to.
WBY