In that scenario, I think it would be only fair of ye to hand back Danzig and the rest of eastern Germany.
Get fucked.
The Ukranian is a complete mess. They had their Orange revolution almost ten years ago. At that time, the Russian/Communist preferred candidate Yanukovich made a total balls of rigging an election. The opposition got power (Yushenko, the guy that they tried to poison allegedly plus the lovely Timoshenko) and they made a balls of it. In fairness, these opposition groups haven’t a clue how to be in power, democracy takes time to work. As happened in a lot of post communist countries, the electorate re-elected the ex communists who rebranded themselves. (A bit like Fianna Fail, they have an effective party machine).
There is a serious east/west split in the country. As @mickee321 pointed out, the east of the country is effectively Russian and the west of Ukraine was Poland until 1945. (By the way, the Russians physically moved a lot of the local population out of the Ukraine into the new Polish territories annexed from Germany, into cities like Wroclaw).
The country has a strong industrial base in the East (mostly bankrupt state industries) and a massive agricultural sector. It should be the breadbasket of Europe, instead it is a basket case.
The country is run by a group of oligarchs who eventually will tell Yanukovich what to do , so as to protect their interests. The extremes of wealth and poverty in the Ukraine are huge. You would nearly see more flashy cars outside luxury hotels in Kiev that you would in Monaco.
The country is bankrupt. The west is European leaning. There was a trade deal on the table from the EU that was rejected to the surprise of Pat Cox and co. No doubt the Russians put significant pressure on Yanukovich not to sign it. There is a transparent trade border between Ukraine and Russia. Therefore, in fairness to the Russians, they would have seen the EU deal as an attack on their markets, seeing as goods could come freely into the Ukraine from the EU and then be passed into Russia. So there are economic reasons why Russia would put pressure on but the core reason is most probably political. Russia has a massive inferiority complex these days, that’s why they won’t stop backing Assad. Or lose influence in Ukraine.
Then the Russians put cheap gas and a 15billion Dollar loan on the table. The EU offered nothing and expected Yanukich to still sign up! The EU doesn’t have a pot to piss in either.
The opposition in Ukraine has evolved from a protest over the EU deal to a move to oust Yanukovich who the opposition say is not longer a legitimate president because he rigged the constitution after being elected.
I have no idea what happens next. But it might not be pleasant.
that’s an excellent contribution @balbec
Im too tired to do it justice with a proper response but will do so tomorrow
Balbec, is it really a nation? Or more a political entity to be used by russia
[quote=“balbec, post: 906356, member: 193”]The Ukranian is a complete mess. They had their Orange revolution almost ten years ago. At that time, the Russian/Communist preferred candidate Yanukovich made a total balls of rigging an election. The opposition got power (Yushenko, the guy that they tried to poison allegedly plus the lovely Timoshenko) and they made a balls of it. In fairness, these opposition groups haven’t a clue how to be in power, democracy takes time to work. As happened in a lot of post communist countries, the electorate re-elected the ex communists who rebranded themselves. (A bit like Fianna Fail, they have an effective party machine).
There is a serious east/west split in the country. As @mickee321 pointed out, the east of the country is effectively Russian and the west of Ukraine was Poland until 1945. (By the way, the Russians physically moved a lot of the local population out of the Ukraine into the new Polish territories annexed from Germany, into cities like Wroclaw).
The country has a strong industrial base in the East (mostly bankrupt state industries) and a massive agricultural sector. It should be the breadbasket of Europe, instead it is a basket case.
The country is run by a group of oligarchs who eventually will tell Yanukovich what to do , so as to protect their interests. The extremes of wealth and poverty in the Ukraine are huge. You would nearly see more flashy cars outside luxury hotels in Kiev that you would in Monaco.
The country is bankrupt. The west is European leaning. There was a trade deal on the table from the EU that was rejected to the surprise of Pat Cox and co. No doubt the Russians put significant pressure on Yanukovich not to sign it. There is a transparent trade border between Ukraine and Russia. Therefore, in fairness to the Russians, they would have seen the EU deal as an attack on their markets, seeing as goods could come freely into the Ukraine from the EU and then be passed into Russia. So there are economic reasons why Russia would put pressure on but the core reason is most probably political. Russia has a massive inferiority complex these days, that’s why they won’t stop backing Assad. Or lose influence in Ukraine.
Then the Russians put cheap gas and a 15billion Dollar loan on the table. The EU offered nothing and expected Yanukich to still sign up! The EU doesn’t have a pot to piss in either.
The opposition in Ukraine has evolved from a protest over the EU deal to a move to oust Yanukovich who the opposition say is not longer a legitimate president because he rigged the constitution after being elected.
I have no idea what happens next. But it might not be pleasant.[/quote]
What an absolutely superb and highly informative post:clap:
However I must call you up on one thing. A country that produced Dostoevsky, Pushkin, Yashin, Tarkovsky, Stravinski, Shostakovitch, Nabakov, TASE (not forgetting either how they saved us all from the Nazi’s and were the first in space) will never, ever, have an inferiority complex.
A superiority complex? well that’s another story…
Don’t know Fitzy.
The east of Ukraine is effectively Russian. It is a political entity. Russia will never allow it to face west.
The EU and Ukraine both underestimated the lengths Russia would go to maintain it’s control/influence. The EU deal would have been worth more to Ukraine in the long term, but through tariffs and energy costs Russia would effectively wipe out the economy in the entire eastern part of the country and leave hundreds of thousands unemployed before the benefits of the EU deal would be seen.
Incidentally Moldova are heading down the same road that brought Ukraine to this turmoil, approaching signing an EU association agreement and building pipelines to reduce dependency on Russian gas. Similar to Ukraine they are not far off a close to even east/west leaning split in their population, a slight majority in favour of joining the EU (probably similar to Ukraine). In their favour though they are much smaller and have Ukraine sitting between them and Russia. Russia will still do everything it can to prevent them aligning with the EU though.
If only Pat Cox hadn’t been distracted by the Limerick City of Culture debacle. Maybe everything would have turned out ok in Kiev.
Things turning bad again today, 60 shot dead they reckon. Yanukovich will end up like Ceaucescu if he is not careful.
I wonder who’d win a Civil War. One side backed up by the EU who will no doubt enforce an embargo on South West Ukrainian sunflower oil or the other side with President Putin in their corner.
Whats going on in this kip? Some amount of lads getting wasted on the news here
Will it do a Sudan and split?
I was watching the british minister for the EU on the TV there, what a tool. He has summoned the Ukranian ambasador an given him a right dressing down which I’m sure the Ukranian found incredibly tedious and boring. This brit cunt sounded like the worst kind of politician, all bluster and bullshit, chest out, “look at me, i’m hard I am”. He’d fit in well in the Australia political scene. The Polish foreign minister sounded infinitely more intelligent.
If this becomes a prolonged situation, I wonder will they start terrorist attacks on Moscow? 2018 WC coming up, the Russkies need to start being nice to people.
The russians sort out fudgepackers fairly lively. Sort them out good and proper
[quote=“Fitzy, post: 906925, member: 236”]I was watching the british minister for the EU on the TV there, what a tool. He has summoned the Ukranian ambasador an given him a right dressing down which I’m sure the Ukranian found incredibly tedious and boring. This brit cunt sounded like the worst kind of politician, all bluster and bullshit, chest out, “look at me, i’m hard I am”. He’d fit in well in the Australia political scene. The Polish foreign minister sounded infinitely more intelligent.
If this becomes a prolonged situation, I wonder will they start terrorist attacks on Moscow? 2018 WC coming up, the Russkies need to start being nice to people.[/quote]
Radek Sikorski is a smart bloke. He fought in Afghanistan against the Russians in the early 80’s (allegedly). He went to Oxford and was in the Bullingdon club with Boris Johnson. So I expect that makes him a cunt in your opinion.
The Russians will have enough terrorist threats from Islamist types.
[quote=“balbec, post: 906974, member: 193”]Radek Sikorski is a smart bloke. He fought in Afghanistan against the Russians in the early 80’s (allegedly). He went to Oxford and was in the Bullingdon club with Boris Johnson. So I expect that makes him a cunt in your opinion.
The Russians will have enough terrorist threats from Islamist types.[/quote]
No Balbec, he sounds like a very smart bloke, not a cunt at all. I’m sure he probably thinks Boris is a harmless cunt like the rest of us.