2015 All Ireland Football Championship - FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MAKE IT STOP

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541

It’s the GAA you are talking about, what this means when there is a lopsided draw in the provincials it means that the qualifier system (in its current format) reinforces it. There was a lopsided draw last year and it’s even moreso this year. As I have said before, the qualifiers should aim to redress the perceived imbalance of the provincial systems, instead the GAA have guaranteed that not only won’t they redress but they will reinforce it,

People like Kevin want Ulster counties to jump as many hurdles as they can make them while his own county is given a soft path to the last 12. Whatever though, if that’s the way it is then we’ll just have to get on with it, unfair and all as it is.

542

[QUOTE=“Nembo Kid, post: 1156033, member: 2514”]It’s the GAA you are talking about, what this means when there is a lopsided draw in the provincials it means that the qualifier system (in its current format) reinforces it. There was a lopsided draw last year and it’s even moreso this year. As I have said before, the qualifiers should aim to redress the perceived imbalance of the provincial systems, instead the GAA have guaranteed that not only won’t they redress but they will reinforce it,

People like Kevin want Ulster counties to jump as many hurdles as they can make them while his own county is given a soft path to the last 12. Whatever though, if that’s the way it is then we’ll just have to get on with it, unfair and all as it is.[/QUOTE]

Things might fluctuate a bit more in the Ulster championship in that largely there’s a more even spread of GAA playing numbers across the counties and you don’t have the type of demographics that see the most populated counties like Kerry, Cork, Mayo, Galway, Dublin and Meath perennially dominate in the provincial championship. If you take last year’s All Ireland Championship, 7 of the 9 Ulster counties exited to non-Ulster counties.

Roscommon beat Cavan
Limerick beat Antrim
Laois beat Fermanagh
Longford beat Derry
Kildare beat Down
Dublin beat Monaghan
Kerry beat Donegal

Obviously Kerry & Dublin are the two heavyweights of the game but the other five Ulster counties losing to moderate opposition -Roscommon, Limerick and Longford (who were relegated to Division 4) were all Division 3 sides.

You had that period from 1976 through the 80’s when Ulster football was at a very low ebb, that no county retained the Ulster title but apart from that, the better teams in Ulster will dominate. Donegal have been in the last four Ulster finals, winning three of them (and the one they lost was to Monaghan who have been the second best side in Ulster over the last 3-4 years). Armagh and Tyrone won all 12 Ulster championships between them from 1999-2010. Down in their great era won 8 of the 12 Ulster titles between 1959-70, Cavan winning four. Prior to that Cavan won it pretty much all the time. Cavan had 32 Ulster titles amassed by 1955 before Tyrone, Derry, Down or Donegal had even won their first. The strong teams will come through regardless.

543

[QUOTE=“Manuel Zelaya, post: 1156079, member: 377”]Things might fluctuate a bit more in the Ulster championship in that largely there’s a more even spread of GAA playing numbers across the counties and you don’t have the type of demographics that see the most populated counties like Kerry, Cork, Mayo, Galway, Dublin and Meath perennially dominate in the provincial championship. If you take last year’s All Ireland Championship, 7 of the 9 Ulster counties exited to non-Ulster counties.

Roscommon beat Cavan
Limerick beat Antrim
Laois beat Fermanagh
Longford beat Derry
Kildare beat Down
Dublin beat Monaghan
Kerry beat Donegal

Obviously Kerry & Dublin are the two heavyweights of the game but the other five Ulster counties losing to moderate opposition -Roscommon, Limerick and Longford (who were relegated to Division 4) were all Division 3 sides.

You had that period from 1976 through the 80’s when Ulster football was at a very low ebb, that no county retained the Ulster title but apart from that, the better teams in Ulster will dominate. Donegal have been in the last four Ulster finals, winning three of them (and the one they lost was to Monaghan who have been the second best side in Ulster over the last 3-4 years). Armagh and Tyrone won all 12 Ulster championships between them from 1999-2010. Down in their great era won 8 of the 12 Ulster titles between 1959-70, Cavan winning four. Prior to that Cavan won it pretty much all the time. Cavan had 32 Ulster titles amassed by 1955 before Tyrone, Derry, Down or Donegal had even won their first. The strong teams will come through regardless.[/QUOTE]

Maybe so but we still had 3 of the last 8 and I’m pretty sure Tyrone would have been there only for they were on the wrong side of the draw. Only 2 of Armagh, Monaghan and Tyrone could make the last 8 last year. That’s the flaw in the draw.

544

Guys, interesting proposal from Jim McGuinness on the championship structure. I see a lot of merit in it:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/jim-mcguinness-how-i-would-reinvigorate-football-championship-1.2241993

545

[QUOTE=“Bandage, post: 1156183, member: 9”]Guys, interesting proposal from Jim McGuinness on the championship structure. I see a lot of merit in it:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/jim-mcguinness-how-i-would-reinvigorate-football-championship-1.2241993[/QUOTE]

That leaves four places reserved for the provincial championship winners – irrespective of where they finished in the league. So in effect, only the top 11 teams in the league would be guaranteed a seeding in the Sam Maguire bracket. If the top-seed teams also won the provincial titles – as will frequently happen – then the top 15 league teams – and the winner of the previous season’s second-tier championship – go into the grade one All-Ireland play-offs.

How many teams who are not in Top 11 in League are capable of winning their province though

some good points - streamlining games over a Friday, Saturday and Sunday is a great idea but attendances will suffer or amateur lads giving up work will be raised and it will be ditched

Merit in having a two tier system but if you do that then you could just go with American Football system and preserve your provincial championships as play off games to qualify for a semi final

546

People advocating a two tier system are missing the point. The real reason for the widening of the gap in the past 4-5 years is resources, that’s the issue that needs tackling.

547

Great system.

548

So your main gripe is Tyrone went out of the tournament early to Armagh. Tyrone can’t have been up to a whole lot if they lost to Armagh, who were a Division 3 league side last season, hadn’t progressed beyond the last 16 of the All Ireland Championship since 2008, hadn’t reached even a provincial final since winning Ulster in 2008 and since last winning that Ulster title in 2008 had variously been eliminated from the Championship to the likes of Wexford, Galway and Roscommon.

Tyrone scored a paltry 0-10 in losing to Armagh in mid July. It was about time they were put out of their misery for the season. In the decade prior to the introduction of the backdoor system in 2001, defending All Ireland champions of 1990 Cork, 1993 Derry, 1994 Down and 1999 Meath exited the championship the following year in the month of May.

So Ulster had 3 counties in the last 8. That sound about right, with 9 counties competing, that’s a 33% representation in the quarter final.

Of the 5 counties in Connacht, 2 were in the last 8 - that’s 40% representation.

Of the 6 counties in Munster, 2 were in the last 8, that’s 33% representation.

549

Decent proposal. I suppose in theory you could play all the quarter finals in Croke Park and have the second tier games as curtain raisers. Would give 50% of the second tier teams an opportunity to play there and their fans an opportunity to go there

550

I haven’t the time at the moment to read the Jim McGuinness article, i’ll look it at it later, but just from what you’re saying there, I take it he’s more or less advocating the re-introduction of the much derided Tommy Murphy Cup?

551

Not really,some what similar but a far more practical solution. Two tiers top 16 in one, the other 16 in the other, winners of tier two guaranteed place in tier on the following year.

Tiers decided by league and provincial performance that year as well

552

[QUOTE=“Manuel Zelaya, post: 1156216, member: 377”]So your main gripe is Tyrone went out of the tournament early to Armagh. Tyrone can’t have been up to a whole lot if they lost to Armagh, who were a Division 3 league side last season, hadn’t progressed beyond the last 16 of the All Ireland Championship since 2008, hadn’t reached even a provincial final since winning Ulster in 2008 and since last winning that Ulster title in 2008 had variously been eliminated from the Championship to the likes of Wexford, Galway and Roscommon.

Tyrone scored a paltry 0-10 in losing to Armagh in mid July. It was about time they were put out of their misery for the season. In the decade prior to the introduction of the backdoor system in 2001, defending All Ireland champions of 1990 Cork, 1993 Derry, 1994 Down and 1999 Meath exited the championship the following year in the month of May.

So Ulster had 3 counties in the last 8. That sound about right, with 9 counties competing, that’s a 33% representation in the quarter final.

Of the 5 counties in Connacht, 2 were in the last 8 - that’s 40% representation.

Of the 6 counties in Munster, 2 were in the last 8, that’s 33% representation.[/QUOTE]

Oh so you want to at the divisional statuses of the All Ireland quarter finalists of 2014. Let’s do that so.

Armagh had to beat one Div 1 side, one Div 2 side and two Div 3 sides to get to the qf.

Monaghan had to beat two Div 1 sides and one Div 2 side to get there.

Donegal had to beat one Div 1 side, one Div 2 side and one Div 4 side to get there.

Kerry has to beat one Div 4 side and one Div 1 side to get there.

Dublin had to beat two Div 2 sides and one Div 3 side to get there.

Mayo had to beat one Div 2 side and one Div 3 side to get there.

Quite clear who had the most difficult paths to the last 8.

553

Cork and Galway only had to beat Div 3 and 4 teams respectively.

554

[QUOTE=“Big Mick McCarthy, post: 1156231, member: 1137”]Not really, a far more practical solution. Two tiers top 16 in one, the other 16 in the other, winners of tier two guaranteed place in tier on the following year.

Tiers decided by league and provincial performance that year as well[/QUOTE]

There’s an awful lot of agonising over structures. Ultimately when all is said and done and regardless of all the moaning, every county wants a crack at winning a provincial and maybe an All Ireland title every year. Your going to have the same counties with big populations and resources and tradition, Dublin, Kerry dominating regardless of what system is used. Outside of the salary cap/draft system its the same in just about every sport. The European Cup can now only be won by an elite group of super franchises from England, Spain and Germany, maybe Italy at a push. The days of a Red Star Belgrade, Steau Bucharest or Glasgow Celtic winning it are over, possibly forever. Its the same in the EPL, European Rugby, just about any sport you choose to pick.

You’ll always have a few smaller county that will have a particularly talented crop of players that will punch above their weight with a once in a generation team in any given year. Monaghan with the 4th or 5th smallest population in the country are the classic case in point at the moment. Derry in 1993 (when you take out the Unionist population and Derry city which is a GAA wasteland) are probably the county with the smallest ever pick to win a football All Ireland. Offaly before that in the 70’s and early 80’s. No matter what system is used the same counties will invariably come to the top. I actually favour a return to the old straight knock out system. When you’re beaten, you’re gone. The backdoor second chance system favours the stronger counties as you might catch them out once, but rarely twice. The best example of that is from the hurling championship in 2004. Under the old system, would probably have ended up with an All Ireland Final between the Munster and Leinster champions - Waterford v Wexford. Instead the 2004 All Ireland Hurling Final was that most novel of pairings Kilkenny v Cork.

555

[QUOTE=“Nembo Kid, post: 1156234, member: 2514”]Oh so you want to at the divisional statuses of the All Ireland quarter finalists of 2014. Let’s do that so.

Armagh had to beat one Div 1 side, one Div 2 side and two Div 3 sides to get to the qf.

Monaghan had to beat two Div 1 sides and one Div 2 side to get there.

Donegal had to beat one Div 1 side, one Div 2 side and one Div 4 side to get there.

Kerry has to beat one Div 4 side and one Div 1 side to get there.

Dublin had to beat two Div 2 sides and one Div 3 side to get there.

Mayo had to beat one Div 2 side and one Div 3 side to get there.

Quite clear who had the most difficult paths to the last 8.[/QUOTE]

Armagh were the giant killing act of the 2014 championship. A third tier team, with nothing but years of failure behind them in the provincial championship and play off’s who made it to the quarter finals. It was like one of those giant killing FA Cup runs, Plymouth Argyle in 1984 or Chesterfield in 1997 reaching the FA Cup semi final.

556

At least he doesn’t mention the dreaded "champions league style format ".I actually like his proposal but if the B competition isn’t properly sold to the smaller county’s it’ll end up like the Tommy Murphy cup,Totti is also right about resources money etc the way it’s going only 2 or 3 teams will have a chance to win the all Ireland

557

:rolleyes:

Armagh’s divisional status ia huge outlier this year. They are on the top 8 teams in the country right now. Kildare will be the league outlier next year. I expect them to make a good run at the last 8 this year given the kind draw they have.

558

[QUOTE=“Manuel Zelaya, post: 1156079, member: 377”]Things might fluctuate a bit more in the Ulster championship in that largely there’s a more even spread of GAA playing numbers across the counties and you don’t have the type of demographics that see the most populated counties like Kerry, Cork, Mayo, Galway, Dublin and Meath perennially dominate in the provincial championship. If you take last year’s All Ireland Championship, 7 of the 9 Ulster counties exited to non-Ulster counties.

Roscommon beat Cavan
Limerick beat Antrim
Laois beat Fermanagh
Longford beat Derry
Kildare beat Down
Dublin beat Monaghan
Kerry beat Donegal

Obviously Kerry & Dublin are the two heavyweights of the game but the other five Ulster counties losing to moderate opposition -Roscommon, Limerick and Longford (who were relegated to Division 4) were all Division 3 sides.

You had that period from 1976 through the 80’s when Ulster football was at a very low ebb, that no county retained the Ulster title but apart from that, the better teams in Ulster will dominate. Donegal have been in the last four Ulster finals, winning three of them (and the one they lost was to Monaghan who have been the second best side in Ulster over the last 3-4 years). Armagh and Tyrone won all 12 Ulster championships between them from 1999-2010. Down in their great era won 8 of the 12 Ulster titles between 1959-70, Cavan winning four. Prior to that Cavan won it pretty much all the time. Cavan had 32 Ulster titles amassed by 1955 before Tyrone, Derry, Down or Donegal had even won their first. The strong teams will come through regardless.[/QUOTE]
Population is not what’s doing it for Kerry. They have the same population as Wexford and are only the 4th most populous county in Munster and the 9th most populous in 26 counties.

559

Could someone remind me who Armagh beat en route to the quarter final last year and outline the stage they’ve been eliminated at each year since 2009?

560

Last year Armagh’s record in the Championship was:

Won:
Cavan
Tyrone
Roscommon
Meath

Drew:
Monaghan

Lost:
Monaghan
Donegal