2023 AI Hurling Final Limericks v KK

[Aertel220]

@Cheasty

Dublin in 2011 had Jack McCaffrey, Paul Mannion, John Small, Ciaran Kilkenny, Cormac Costello, Robbie McDaid, and a load of other fellas who were regular senior panel members, yet they lost to Tipperary.

Harsh on a fine Tipp team who backboned a Munster title and two All-Ireland semi-final appearances. A very good team in their own right.

@Iggy

Tom Phelan the quintessential late bloomer?

Christ I assumed Tom Phelan was about 23. Didn’t realise he was turning 28 this year. He plays like a slightly awkward young fella about to grow into his frame and develop as hurler.

[ousmanedembele]

Quaid
Finn Delaney Nash
Walsh Hannon Hayes (No byrnes?? May have to be,although I’d move Hannon maybe)
Fennelly Lynch
Larkin Shefflin Hegarty
Gillane Power Brennan

EDIT. Cha for Fennelly

[backinatracksuit]

I think so myself,
I remember a Cork Tipp u21 match in the Pairc and it was felt that Kelly was taking the piss, but he got away with it and continued to, it’s par for the course now

[Aertel220]

@Arthur

Have any of ye picked a combined kilkenny/Limerick 4 in a row team?

1. Nicky Quaid
2. Sean Finn
3. JJ Delaney
4. Barry Nash
5. Tommy Walsh
6. Declan Hannon
7. Kyle Hayes
8. James Cha Fitzpatrick
9. Cian Lynch
10. Hego
11. Henry Shefflin
12. Eoin Larkin
13. Aaron Gillane
14. Richie Power
15. Eddie Brennan

Christ that’s a tough team to pick. I have to go back and fit Kyle Hayes in there somewhere. Possibly at wing-forward for Hego considering he played there in the 2018 final. Cian Lynch is more of a centre-forward than a midfielder but he’s regularly interchanged between the two. Barry Nash probably has a bit more hurling than Jackie Tyrell at corner-back so I opted for him.

Edit: I’ve changed it now. Shoehorn JJ at corner-back and I can fit in Kyle Hayes. I could switch JJ to full-back for Noel Hickey and then bring Barry Nash back in at 4. That would tip the balance from 7 Limericks and 8 Kilkenny to 8 Limericks.

[Aertel220]

@ousmanedembele

Fennelly

Did he not come into his own around 2011? He was in and out of the team in the 2006-2009 spell iirc.

[ousmanedembele]

I was just going to edit. Cha for Fennelly.

[Bisto]

The likes of King Con and Kilkenny probably had 5 by 25 too. Richie hogans and a few other Kilkenny hurlers must have done same

[peddlerscross]

Cormac Costello had 5 won by 24 albeit mostly as a sub.

[Big_Dan_Campbell]

TJ and Richie would but wouldn’t have started all five finals

[glasagusban]

I’d liken Tom Morrissey to Larkin. Incredible consistency and Trojan workrate, always coming up with something when the chips are down.

[Big_Dan_Campbell]

I’d assume Ring and some of the greats of yesteryear would be close as well

[Malarkey]

@fenwaypark

Handpass off the hurley is a great skill.

True. But the problem lies with refereeing handpasses in overall terms.

[Big_Dan_Campbell]

It is no longer a hand pass and more a push these days. I think the simple solution is to mandate refs to blow for anything that is not a clear and obvious hand pass - as in a release and a strike in two separate motions.

I think if this happened and the puckout was changed to having to be taken in the style of a free rather than from the hand it would improve the game for the better.

[Aertel220]

True. I’d nearly pick him above Hego too. A better hurler/stickman per se but Hego delivered 3 iconic All-Ireland performances in a row so has to be in there somewhere.

[Malarkey]

@endakenny

The handpass off the hurley and switch handpass are great skills which should both be allowed. The throwing that teams currently employ is not hurling.

We are in agreement, as usual. But my sense is that the rucks and the tangles that are a blight on the contemporary are handpass dependent. A handpass ban would, I believe, indirectly free up hurling.

My thought in this area has little or nothing to do with Limerick, since I believe they would have won yesterday even if handpassing was not an option.

[Malarkey]

@Big_Dan_Campbell

It is no longer a hand pass and more a push these days. I think the east solution is to mandate refs to blow for anything that is not a clear and obvious hand pass - as it a release and a strike in two separate motions.

I think if this happened and the puckout was changed to having to be taken in the style of a free rather than from the hand it would improve the game for the better.

But we both know referees simply are unable to make that distinction or any relevant cognate one.

The second idea is intriguing. How exactly do you think it would engender significant improvement in the game?

[Malarkey]

@Cheasty

Sometimes it just happens though that a gifted minor team loses to an inferior opponent, but a load of that team produces the goods at senior level and the team that beats them doesn’t tear up trees at senior. Minor is an inherently unpredictable grade because of the age factor.

In football, a stacked Galway team in 1994 (Joyce, Donnellan, Savage, two Meehans, Divilly, Richie Fahy, Scan Concannon) lost to a Kerry team which didn’t produce too much in the way of senior stars.

Dublin in 2011 had Jack McCaffrey, Paul Mannion, John Small, Ciaran Kilkenny, Cormac Costello, Robbie McDaid, and a load of other fellas who were regular senior panel members, yet they lost to Tipperary.

The Clare generation of Tony Kelly/Shane O’Donnell/Peter Duggan/Colm Galvin/Podge Collins/Aaron Cunningham/David McInerney/Cathal Malone/Seadna Morey plus a few others never won a minor, again losing to teams who produced less at senior level.

Under 21 when it existed was usually a better barometer of future senior success than minor.

Agree entirely on U21 as a better indicator. I remember the 1993 Minor All Ireland-winning Kilkenny team being hailed as a particularly gifted one. Yet that group produced almost no Senior players and certainly no standout one. And the 1996 U21 All Ireland was not won.

There is a lot of stuff that went on at Minor and U21 during the 2010s that I would like, in a sense, to talk about. But too much hassle. There was quite a lot of dysfunction.

[maurice_brown]

I remember a mate of mine going on the radio, Des Cahill Take Yout Point or some such title on radio 1 debating, on what he thought was actually an infringement. Personally I think if the ball doesn’t leave the bás until it’s lofted for the backswing there’s no issue.

[Big_Dan_Campbell]

I think it would add a few extra percentage of difficulty in terms of the speed and accuracy that keepers can deliver short and intermediate puckouts meaning teams would be able to push up on these/read these easier. Would lead to more contested long deliveries rather than teams trying to circumnavigate the middle third through short puckouts and playing out from the full backline. Would reduce the shot and score count and lead to more high fielding and contested ball in the middle third

[Bisto]

@Malarkey

Agree entirely on U21 as a better indicator. I remember the 1993 Minor All Ireland-winning Kilkenny team being hailed as a particularly gifted one.

Was there a really good forward from castlcomer on that ? And a lad called Cleere too?