Do you honestly believe Palestine would exist if it were not for Israel? Would it fuck ,it would have been carved up by Eqypt Jordan Lebanon and Syria. Donât forget Palestinians were fucked out of all those countries.
Ah, the old âPalestine is a fictionâ argument.
The following solutions would all be acceptable to Palestine.
i) Two states, Palestine being made up of the entirety of the West Bank and Gaza, ie. the 1967 borders, with East Jerusalem as its capital, and the right of return for remaining refugees and their descendants, with rights to both full Israel and Palestinian citizenship for those returning, as happens in Northern Ireland where dual citizenship is allowed. As the Palestinian ambassador to the UK so articulately stated, this is the minimum acceptable compromise.
ii) A Bosnia style federal plan. A representative national government, with two autonomous republics along the 1967 borders, one Israeli controlled, one Palestinian controlled. A federal constitution.
iii) Full integration as one state with full citizenship rights for all.
I think any of those three are reasonable plans to anybody who is genuinely interested in justice.
It is is a fiction. Arab nations, which make up 99.9% of the land in the Middle East have never recognized a Palestinian state, neither before 1947 nor since 1947. The first time the name Palestine was applied to a territory was under the British mandate which included modern day Israel, the occupied territories, and Jordan.
Do you not find it a bit troubling that Arab nations control 99.9% of the Middle East and yet drove all Jews and Palestinian Arabs out of their countries? Maybe neither the Jews nor the Palestinians are the problem.
I find #1 acceptable. 2 and 3 are off the table as long as the countries which occupy 99.9% of the land in the ME are undemocratic and with a few recent exceptions do not accept Israelâs right to exist.
âIt is a fiction.â
Youâre seriously running out of arguments now, arenât you.
I should have figured youâd retreat into denying the actual existence of a people when all your other arguments were exposed.
Fuck knows what youâd have said if youâd been around in Ireland in 1917. Suffice to say it would been like something out of Punch magazine in the 19th century.
OK. Thatâs a start. How do you remove the 650k Israeli settlers in the West Bank? Do they move at all?
Will Israel agree to this plan? What are the chances?
When did a Palestinian state exist, with borders, and inhabited by Palestinian Arabs (Muslims, Christians and Druze)? The answer from Arab historians is never, the area called Palestine was historically part of Syria. Palestine is an invention of the British in 1917.
Open to correction but I believe Jewish settlements comprise 2% of the land in the West Bank, I honestly donât see it as insurmountable.
When did an Irish state ever exist? When did an Israeli state ever exist? A Italian state never existed before 1860 or whatever it was. Same with Germany. If you want to go down that road, all states are artificial creations. A 32 county Ireland would be an artificial creation. That does not mean such a thing as Ireland or an Irish people does not exist.
To say the Palestinian people do not exist and there should be no such thing as a Palestinian state when there is so clearly an overwhelming desire for one in whatever shape or form, is denialism.
But I havenât said any of that. Palestinian people do exist and I support their right to a state.
Thatâs where the easy stuff ends. Even the term âPalestinian peopleâ is controversial, why would that not include Jews who historically lived in the area, is it not racist to exclude them? There are clearly Palestinian Arabs who resided in the area called Palestine by the British prior to and since 1947. Thatâs how the PLO defined Palestinian, and it doesnât include Arabs from other countries, for example there are 2 million of the 2.9 million in the West Bank who did not come from Palestine, most are from Jordan. In 1945 there were 1.55 million in Palestine, 1 million Arabs and 550K Jews, that number is now 14 million, roughly 50:50. So most people living in âPalestineâ are migrants from other countries. Itâs truly complicated.
The whole narrative though is how wrong it was for Jews to migrate to Palestine, even though most of them were fleeing the holocaust or from other countries where they werenât wanted or driven out. But millions of Arabs have migrated there as well, even within Israel itself the population of Arabs has doubled since 1947.
Why donât we also focus on the words you ignored âor the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other countryâ.
Were these words written in 1917 lived up to? There were 9 million Jews in Europe in 1917, there are 1.3 million today. We know where 6 million of them went, but the Jewish population in Europe has also dropped by 60% since 1970. Then you also have close to another million who were driven out of Arab countries after 1948. If Palestinians have a right to return and get their land back, then I assume you agree Jews have the same right to reclaim the land and property they owned in Europe and the Arab world. Sadly the 6 million who were murdered, including 1.5 million children, have no rights or descendants to claim rights.
It was called Palestine from the time of Caesar when it was very much a a Jewish state. I dunno where this 100 year old name is coming from
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It was under Emperor Hadrian after the Bar Kokhba revolt of 132-135, the name of the region was changed from Judea to Syria Palaestina.
This is an excellent read about the strange bedfellows of Israeli nationalism, Zionism and virulent anti-Semitism.
When Zionism is Antisemitic
Over the past couple of weeks, many American Zionists have trotted out the common claim that any criticism of the state of Israel is an expression of antisemitism. This claim is harmful for a number of reasons, but Iâll focus on just one here: namely, the fact that many far-right groups in the United States both support Israel and express open antisemitism.
Itâs important to understand the antisemitism that frequently fuels support for Israel, because it helps us see through the fallacy that criticisms of Israel are antisemitic. Below is a quick, non-exhaustive, primer on some of the groups who support Israel and promote antisemitism at the same time.
â Evangelicals and Christian Zionists
A large percentage of Evangelical Christians support Israel specifically because they believe it is necessary to bring about the Biblical end times. They believe that God granted the state of Israel to the Jewish people and that the Bible states that the rapture will come only after the Jewish people have âreclaimedâ it. In fact, the popularity of end times rhetoric among Evangelical Christians skyrocketed after the 1967 Six-Day War. More recently, Donald Trumpâs unwavering support of Israel - and his decision to move the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem - has been one of the linchpins of his support among Evangelicals.
While many of these Evangelicals would take issue with claims that their beliefs are antisemitic, itâs important to note that their support of Israel is based on a view of Christian supremacy and superiority, one that ultimately sees the need for Judaism to be eradicated. After all, the Evangelical belief in the rapture suggests that after Christ returns to earth and takes Christians to heaven with him, the anti-Christ will come to earth, and Jews will have to convert to Christianity or perish.
Some Evangelical Zionist leaders are even explicit in their antisemitism. Take, for example, the Christian Zionist leader John Hagee, the founder and chairman of Christians United for Israel (which, as of 2018, had over 5 million active members). In 2003, Hagee claimed that the anti-Christ would be gay and at least âpartially Jewish, as was Adolph Hitler, as was Karl Marx.â He has also claimed that the Holocaust was the fault of the Jewish people for supposedly disobeying God, and that Hitler was a hunter sent by God to expedite the rapture by leading to the Jewish âre-establishmentâ of a state of Israel. These views seem fringe, but the large membership of Hageeâs organization suggests that his ideas are supported by more than a few people on the outskirts of society.
Itâs also worth noting that Christian Zionists have continually collaborated with a range of other far-right, and frequently antisemitic, groups. Not least of all, Christian Zionists waving Israeli flags were spotted at the storming of the capitol building on January 6, alongside a range of antisemitic conspiracy theorists.
â White nationalists
Israel has long been a contentious topic among white supremacists and white nationalists within the United States. Unsurprisingly, many far-right sects who embrace antisemitism also reject Israel and point to its political influence as an excuse to promote conspiracy theories and broader antisemitism.
However, other white nationalists support Israel and see it as an example of an ethnostate they hope to replicate. One recent public example is alt-right poster-boy Richard Spencer, who previously likened his own white nationalism to âWhite Zionism.â In 2018, after Israel passed its ânation-state law,â effectively restricting civil rights to its Jewish citizens, Spencer celebrated, saying that âJews are, once again, at the vanguard, rethinking politics and sovereignty for the future, showing a path forward for Europeans.â
In case there is any doubt that Spencer is also extremely antisemitic, itâs worth remembering that he uses anti-Jewish slurs, spreads anti-Jewish conspiracy theories, and that his anti-Jewish sentiments are at the core of his political ideas. He has also frequently quoted Nazi propaganda and adopted Nazi imagery and rhetoric in his talks and writing.
Spencer, who has always been particularly concerned with gaining mainstream appeal, seems to have recognized the PR potential for such Zionist statements, and he may have hoped that the American right-wing could come to embrace ethno-nationalism if he highlighted the similarities to Israelâs approach. In another statement, he told an Israeli news outlet that âI want us to have a secure homeland for us and ourselves. Just like you [Jews] want a secure homeland in Israel.â Thereâs also another undercurrent to his argument: if American Jewish people gravitate to Israel, that leaves the U.S. one step closer to a white nationalist state.
Spencerâs ideas on Israel have since changed, and in recent years his influence in the far-right movement has drastically declined. Nonetheless, he serves as a useful example here, as one of the most successful and famous white nationalists of the past decade. And itâs also worth noting that heâs not alone: Austriaâs far-right âFreedom Partyâ and Germanyâs far-right âAlternative for Germanyâ party see Israel as an aspirational example of an ethnostate as well.
â MAGA- and Breitbart-style Zionists
Even for those who arenât explicit white nationalists, a range of figures within the âMAGA Rightâ frequently pair casual antisemitism with fervent pro-Israel politics. Perhaps the best example of this is Donald Trump himself. As I mentioned above, Trumpâs enthusiastic support of Israel has helped bolster his Evangelical base, and it has also secured his support from Zionist Jewish voters.
However, throughout his campaign and presidency, he made a wide range of antisemitic remarks and continually showed reluctance to challenge those of the white supremacists and neo-Nazis who supported him. In case anyone has forgotten, he posted an antisemitic meme about Hillary Clinton during the 2016 election; he praised notorious antisemite Henry Ford as having âgood bloodlinesâ; issued a Holocaust Remembrance Day statement that didnât mention Jews (a move praised by white supremacists and neo-Nazis); and infamously equivocated about the white supremacist Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville. This doesnât even include the antisemitic remarks/flirtations with Holocaust denial from his family members (such as Donald Trump Jr.), campaign staff (such as Steve Bannon), and administration members (such as Sean Spicer and Sebastian Gorka).
Trump and his allies have also frequently flirted with the antisemitic trope of âdual loyaltyâ â that is, the idea promoted for thousands of years that Jews âare not to be trusted because their true allegiance is to their religion, rather than to the country in which they live.â Trump has consistently told Jewish critics of Israel that they are being âdisloyal,â and he has referred to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as âyour prime ministerâ to a room of Jewish-American Republicans. Pro-Trump media outlets like Newsmax have repeated the same tropes by, for example, telling American Jews that the Biden administration âturns its back on your home country.â
All of this behavior arguably helped encourage, and provide cover for, the increase in antisemitic violence after Trumpâs election â including the single deadliest attack on the Jewish community in United States history, at the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, in 2018.
â Far-right Jewish Zionists
Another relevant group here is Jewish Zionists themselves, some of whom are willing to overlook â or even embrace â the antisemitism of other far-right movements, as long as those movements support Israel and the Netanyahu regime.
We need look no further than Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahuâs son, Yair Netanyahu, who, in 2017, posted an antisemitic meme promoting conspiracy theories about Jewish philanthropist George Soros. The meme seemed to suggest that a caricature of Soros, along with caricatures of other Jewish figures, were secretly controlling a number of (also Jewish) critics of Netanyahuâs regime and family. Yair removed the meme after receiving criticism, but in the meantime, it landed support from infamous white supremacist David Duke and the neo-Nazi digital publication The Daily Stormer, who wrote âNetanyahuâs Son Posts Awesome Meme Blaming the Jews for Bringing Down His Jew Father.â
Other Jewish Zionists â including the pro-Israel lobbying group American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) â have embraced John Hagee, the Christian Zionist who claims Hitler was sent from God and that the Holocaust was the fault of Jewish people. Hagee gave the keynote speech at AIPACâs annual conference in 2007 and received a standing ovation. A range of Jewish Zionists, from Harvard Law Professor Alan Derschowitz to Zionist Organization of America President Morton Klein, were equally eager to work with the Trump administration and conveniently ignore its ongoing antisemitism.
These alliances, far from being accidental, can be traced back to the very start of Zionism. Theodor Herzl, the 19th century activist and father of modern political Zionism, was explicit in his desire to work together with antisemitic leaders. Acknowledging that European countries would jump at the chance to remove Jewish people from their regions, he wrote that âthe anti-Semites will become our most dependable friends, the anti-Semitic countries our allies.â
This statement was prescient: UK Prime Minister Arthur Balfour, who issued the Balfour Declaration in 1917 (which declared support for a Jewish nation in Palestine), did so not least of all because of a wish to restrict Jewish immigration to England. In fact, he had previously passed the Aliens Act of 1905explicitly to stop the âevilsâ of Jewish immigration.
Together, these cases highlight some of the ways that Zionism and antisemitism have gone hand in hand. Unfortunately, the groups, alliances, and histories Iâve outlined here only scratch the surface of this historical phenomenon. This is not to say that antisemitism is always the primary driving force of these groupsâ Zionism, nor that every Jewish Zionist is necessarily interested in collaborating with antisemites. Of course, itâs crucial to call attention to the far-right nationalism, Islamophobia, and anti-Arab bigotry at the core of much of the contemporary Zionist movement as well. Itâs also equally important to call attention to antisemitism when it appears in pro-Palestine movements.
Nonetheless, Iâve found that the phenomenon of Zionist antisemitism has frequently flown under the radar in mainstream American discourse, and itâs important to discuss. Ultimately, it shows us that the conflation of opposition to Israel with antisemitism is not only harmful but also untrue.
Classic deflection.
Jews are being physically attacked in American cities by leftist mobs, none of them wearing MAGA hats.
But the far right.
How is it deflection? All anti-Semitism is cancerous.
Are you saying Israel doesnât ally with anti-Semites?
Netanyahu is described by leading Israeli academic historians as an actual Holocaust denier.
Do you think perhaps that any of this might just be an issue?
My take away from years of arguing with you is that you very much believe thereâs such a thing as good anti-Semitism and good anti-Semites - and that anti-Semitism is acceptable as long as the anti-Semite is pro-Israel. The ideology of the Israeli regime is clearly such. Itâs certainly the ideology of the pro-Israel lobby in the US. So itâs no leap at all to suggest that itâs your ideology too.
We saw this type of ideology at work when Kevin Myers wrote a blatantly anti-Semitic column in 2017. His anti-Semitism was defended by supporters of Israel, because he is a supporter of Israel.
Itâs beyond time that cancerous ideology was exposed for what it is. Isnât it?
Thatâs some laugh⌠Palestine never existed but Israel did? Israel has a right to exist but Palestine doesnt? No, No, No - Israel, that never existed prior to 1947 and that has since grown to take huge tracts of land off the natives, largely by European immigrants, has a right to do so.
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Fancy addressing this, @Tierneevin1979?
This is Israelâs ambassador to the UK.
How is this not outright racism? And this is not an individual speaking on her own behalf. This is Israeli policy.
Could you imagine the reaction if this shit was said in Ireland, or the US for that matter?
Israelâs marriage laws are some of the most racist laws in the world and Israel is one of the most racist states in the world.
âWe must confront the fact that the country has not valued education, which is the only way to prevent Jewish women from forging life connections with non-Jews,â Hotovely said.
âThe struggle against assimilation only reaches headlines through stories about Jewish women marrying Muslim men, but it is important to remember that the phenomenon is much wider â 92,000 mixed families live in the State of Israel. There is a need to create a curriculum for girls in high schools that deals with Jewish identity. The fact that girls reach a state of intermarriage testifies to the fact that the education system was absent.â
Israelâs religious authorities â the only entities authorized to perform weddings in Israel â are prohibited from marrying couples unless both partners share the same religion. Therefore, interfaith couples can be legally married in Israel only if one of the partners converts to the religion of the other.
Youâve already admitted you accept a two state plan based on the 1967 borders, the dismantling of all Israeli settlements in the West Bank and East Jersualem, and the right of return of Palestinian refugees and their descendants.
Do you think Israel will accept this?