Fair point and I would broadly agree.
What I would really love to see is a team play a fusion of both games. However, that is simply not possible as the game is far more tactical today.
To master a certain type of game strategy takes a huge amount of time and this is something amateur players do not have.
Also I would not see myself as a traditionalist per se but a fan of hurling. I can see where Fagan is coming from as the traditional game with its skillset is the one is was drawn to as a young fella and the one he most respected and admired (sorry if i’m misrepresenting you here Fagan).
I can also see where Turenne, WTB, Puke etc are coming from as they would have grown up with the modern game and that is the one they admire and respect.
Personally, I see the beauty in both.
Tipp 09-10 must have come close?
moving the ball at speed (first time if possible) into space with a forward en route or already there, having lost his marker due to clever movement off the ball.
designed to avoid the physical match ups under a dropping ball that kilkenny dominate and the purists despair of.
is that not the modern equivalent of first-time hurling?
ground ball is an option but a low-percentage option, to be attempted rarely.
it’s a poorer choice than the standard delivery from wing back (e.g. P Maher to Corbett on numerous occasions) as the ball travels less when striking from the ground and the delivery is less accurate.
I’m not using the term in any derogatory sense, it seems apt since the argument is breaking down along age-related lines
That’s the key point in my opinion. As much as lads might like to see the ball being rapidly moved downfield, unless it leads to more or better scoring opportunities there’s no point in doing it. The reality is this, creating time on the ball to deliver a more accurate pass is what consistently the best results.
Aimlessly lashing the ball down the field tends to be a disaster. Defences don’t get opened up in the way the traditionalists theorise that they would. And this is at least in part because players are in much better physical condition and close down space much quicker. This is also the main reason there are more rucks for the ball. Players are quicker and have better endurance levels and so they get to the broken ball quicker and over a larger area of the playing field.
Against anything resembling a top class defence, you don’t get forwards beating their man to the ball by five yards anymore. As kid says, the days of having enough time to stand and strike the ball in the forwards are gone. So you have to either be very organised in the zones you’re hitting, or you have to be delivering accurate ball into the path (or the hand) of a runner. Otherwise you’re handing the advantage to the defender.
First time hurling would have to make its return in that context. What lads refer to as ‘instinctiveness’ is really just aimlessness, and aimlessness doesn’t get results anymore.
I know that TE. You running the Frank Duffy saturday?
no chief, haven’t been able to get 4 weeks in a row injury free to train properly.
christ knows what kind of time i’d achieve, and that’s assuming my calf held up to a 10 miler
had to move on to mountain biking, yoga and kick boxing to keep fit instead, just run the odd 3-5 miler pounding the pavement is all I do now to make use of the running gear.
Good Post,
Agree aimlessly hitting the ball down the field is regressive. However certain forwards are suited to certain types of ball. Some are better under a high ball, some are better low in front of them, some are better running onto a ball in space and some can win any type of ball.
Players should be capable of hitting a ground ball/lift and strike/overhead pull into a certain area/space. This would give a certain type of forward an advantage.
Only watched patches of that Tipp/Cork youtube clip, but as much as, yes, it had more ground hurling and I do remember it as a chap as being a great game, but it was scrappy as fuck too. Lads getting into clusters and just wildly swinging to try get it out and when it did get out of the pack it invariably went to an opponent who himself pulls first time and it goes to another opponent. The odd time it found their own team mate it looks like a great score because of the quickness of delivery, but that was the exception rather than the norm.
Adrian Fenlon was probably the last of the modern Wexford players, if not all counties, who was a great man for ground hurling. Would constantly be keeping the ball moving and took little time in doubling on it and whipping it into forwards. I still think it has its place, mroe so than whats being used now, but its not the be all and end all that the Tipp/Cork game there had as looking at it critically, its not that sucessful. Watching that, how many times would you have roared ‘ah would you pick it up for fuck sake, you had time’
Ground hurling does not happen now because of a couple of things.
If I have a full ground stroke on the ball and someone nips in and flicks the ball away and I break the hurl off them it can result in a red card. People don’t take the chance with it. People see a hurl break off someone, they think it should be a red card. It shouldn’t and it wasn’t like that in the past but that’s where we are now. So it is down to how it is reffed but also down to the perception of the people. If people would accept that in hurling, hurls break then you may see more ground hurling. Sometimes it breaks when hitting ball, sometimes off another hurl, sometimes off people. It happens. It’s not an automatic red if you break a hurl off someone. It should be if it’s reckless or malicious. Everyone who played on Sunday will have had hurls broke off them at some point. It’s the nature of the game. But people have worked around it and found a better way to play because…
If I pull on the ball it is harder to control. Maybe this skill can be worked on to improve accuracy but I don’t see it being a tactical evolution. These days if I get in a ruck with a bunch of players and kick the ball to space, rise it and lay it off to a teammate they have a much better chance at picking out a team mate down the field than if I pull on it. This is the emphasis on possession that people are talking about.
Fenway, do you think either of those teams would win today? I think they would be beaten out the gate. Even with a ref from back then. I’ve watched a decent bit of All-Ireland Gold and even the difference between 2002 and now is big. I watched Clare Limerick from the mid-90s and it was miles behind what you see these days.
The problem with the game right now revolve almost completely with a systematic cynicism (introduced by Cody and Kilkenny) in which pushing the rules to the limit is the norm for every player in the pitch. Never before did you have lads over-running the ball, using their free hand to grab the opponents hurley, using their free hand to grab a lads free hand when he is soloing, using your free hand to drag a player off balance under a dropping ball, frontal charges and what would be termed ‘professional fouls’ in soccer. Every single one of these (although I’m not bothered about over-running the ball as such) needs to be focused in on by referees, and the rulebook needs clarification for lads running in on goals, or very simply hurling needs its own ‘professional foul’ rule.
There are many lads that would say the same about the ‘rucks’ you see in the modern game.
I’m not advocating that one approach is better than the other. I used the clip to show how the game as changed. It is difficult for lads to see where Fagan was coming from unless you saw the type of game he was referring to.
Again,
Im not advocating one over the other. It was a different era where they played a different type of game.
That wasn’t a pretty Minor AI final for Kilkenny.
Thats exactly the point i’m making. Changes in how the game is reffed have played a huge part in the evolution of the game. I would imagine that teams do VT analysis on referees to see what they can and cant do with certain individuals. If they dont, they should.
yeah true, but I suppose what I am saying is that it was like that back then, which is what fagan was getting at saying that the posession game is causing it. There was plenty of shite play back then and this old revisionism of how great it was years ago is a load of shite if you ask me. Football even more so. Talk about blanket defence and how its cynical now, some of the games in the 70s and 80s were some of the dirtiest cynical games you would ever see. That Meath team of the late 80’s early 90’s would match any of Spillanes hated northern teams now.
That’s true, but I don’t think it’s necessarily because of cynicism, and I definitely don’t think it’s Cody and Kilkenny’s fault. It’s down to the fact that there is just way more physical contact in the game than there used to be.
Have you ever played hurling
I dont think any of that Kilkenny team went on to do anything at senior level after. In fairness, that was easily the best Cork minor team I have ever seen.