All Ireland Senior Football Championship 2014

Sport
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[QUOTE=“Il Bomber Destro, post: 963568, member: 2533”]

Just put the Munster scenario into perspective. Cork/Kerry can make the semi-final by beating Clare/Tipperary where they will then play themselves in a game where even a defeat leaves them in the last 12. The losing side will hope to avoid Derry while the rest of teams really should not be causing much hassle (Sligo, Galway, Tipperary, Limerick, London, Fermanagh, Antrim, Longford and Wexford). I’m not sure whether the provincial final can be repeated in the quarter final but one of Cork/Kerry/Mayo is bound to make a semi-final without having to win a meaningful game against anyone of note.[/QUOTE]

Of course when Northern teams were dominating the AI championship they were coming out of Ulster battle hardened and at a huge advantage to the teams that had strolled in there. Now that they aren’t doing so well they are at a huge disadvantage in having to play such tough games.

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the northies will always find something to moan about…:rolleyes:

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Incorrect, Ulster is the most competitive of all the provinces so the chances of some of the big teams exiting and going into the qualifiers at an early stage is particularly high. I don’t think it’s fair that Tyrone could draw Armagh in a straight knockout game in the last 24 of the All Ireland when the likes of Cork and Kerry are given safe passage to the last 12. Ulster sides are already disadvantaged coming through that province, I believe that to redress the imbalance of provincial championships, that the qualifiers should exclude the possibility of counties meeting other counties from the same province for as long as possible.

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Throw up a table of the number of All Irelands Ulster teams have won since the back door came in versus before it and we’ll take the discussion from there.

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Tyrone have won All Irelands by the back door in 2005 and 2008. 2005 was won when they entered the back door in the last 12 after losing the Ulster final in a replay to Armagh who they then gained revenge in the semi-final by defeating them by a point. Tyrone only played one game in the back door that year, it’s the equivalent to the manner in which either Cork or Kerry will enter this year. Ulster sides are severely disadvantaged by the provincial system and the new qualifier system has only managed to compound that

Dublin can make the last 12 by beating Laois and Wexford.

Mayo can make the last 12 by beating New York and Roscommon.

Kerry can make the last 12 by beating Clare.

Cork can make the last 12 by beating Tipperary.

Galway can make the last 12 by beating London and Sligo.

Tyrone beat Down and are only in the last 32.

Monaghan beat Tyrone are only in the last 24.

Donegal beat Derry and are so far only in the last 24.

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[QUOTE=“Il Bomber Destro, post: 963589, member: 2533”]Tyrone have won All Irelands by the back door in 2005 and 2008. 2005 was won when they entered the back door in the last 12 after losing the Ulster final in a replay to Armagh who they then gained revenge in the semi-final by defeating them by a point. Tyrone only played one game in the back door that year, it’s the equivalent to the manner in which either Cork or Kerry will enter this year. Ulster sides are severely disadvantaged by the provincial system and the new qualifier system has only managed to compound that

Dublin can make the last 12 by beating Laois and Wexford.

Mayo can make the last 12 by beating New York and Roscommon.

Kerry can make the last 12 by beating Clare.

Cork can make the last 12 by beating Tipperary.

Galway can make the last 12 by beating London and Sligo.

Tyrone beat Down and are only in the last 32.

Monaghan beat Tyrone are only in the last 24.

Donegal beat Derry and are so far only in the last 24.[/QUOTE]

% of AI won by Ulster teams since inception. (17/126) 13.5%
% of AI won by Ulster teams since qualifiers were introduced. (5/12) 41.66%

While a competitive Ulster may have been a disadvantage in the past it certainly hasn’t been of late.

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[QUOTE=“Julio Geordio, post: 963597, member: 332”]% of AI won by Ulster teams since inception. (17/126) 13.5%
% of AI won by Ulster teams since qualifiers were introduced. (5/12) 41.66%

While a competitive Ulster may have been a disadvantage in the past it certainly hasn’t been of late.[/QUOTE]

The qualifiers are no more an advantage to Ulster teams than they are to any other side in any other province. All it does is offer a second chance, the fact that Ulster is a stronger province means that Ulster teams are likely to progress further in the qualifier as they are better teams. The stats you present are misleading and do not take into account that Ulster has been the dominant province in football for the past 20 odd years, ever since the troubles ground to a halt in the O6 Ulster counties have dominated with Derry, Tyrone, Armagh, Down and Donegal all winning All Irelands and all doing it by claiming their provincial title.

I don’t think it’s fair for instance that Cork and Kerry are given safe passage to the last 12. This will happen every year from now on. Tomas O’Se said lately that he couldn’t have seen himself winning as many All Irelands with Kerry as he did if they had to play in Ulster and it’s because of this.

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[QUOTE=“Il Bomber Destro, post: 963614, member: 2533”]The qualifiers are no more an advantage to Ulster teams than they are to any other side in any other province. All it does is offer a second chance, the fact that Ulster is a stronger province means that Ulster teams are likely to progress further in the qualifier as they are better teams. The stats you present are misleading and do not take into account that Ulster has been the dominant province in football for the past 20 odd years, ever since the troubles ground to a halt in the O6 Ulster counties have dominated with Derry, Tyrone, Armagh, Down and Donegal all winning All Irelands and all doing it by claiming their provincial title.

I don’t think it’s fair for instance that Cork and Kerry are given safe passage to the last 12. This will happen every year from now on. Tomas O’Se said lately that he couldn’t have seen himself winning as many All Irelands with Kerry as he did if they had to play in Ulster and it’s because of this.[/QUOTE]
You could argue that the IRA ceasefire in fact heralded their mini-decline in the 1995-2001 period.

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[QUOTE=“Il Bomber Destro, post: 963614, member: 2533”]The qualifiers are no more an advantage to Ulster teams than they are to any other side in any other province. All it does is offer a second chance, the fact that Ulster is a stronger province means that Ulster teams are likely to progress further in the qualifier as they are better teams. The stats you present are misleading and do not take into account that Ulster has been the dominant province in football for the past 20 odd years, ever since the troubles ground to a halt in the O6 Ulster counties have dominated with Derry, Tyrone, Armagh, Down and Donegal all winning All Irelands and all doing it by claiming their provincial title.

I don’t think it’s fair for instance that Cork and Kerry are given safe passage to the last 12. This will happen every year from now on. Tomas O’Se said lately that he couldn’t have seen himself winning as many All Irelands with Kerry as he did if they had to play in Ulster and it’s because of this.[/QUOTE]

I agree that Kerry have an easier path, all I was saying was that in the past when Ulster counties were going well this was seen as a disadvantage and why Kerry were losing in September. Now that they aren’t going well the tough championship is a millstone.

Ulster has not been the dominant province for the past twenty years. They won no All-Ireland between 1994 and 2002 and didn’t even have a team in the final after 1995 until 2002. They have been the dominant province since then alright although there has been no Ulster representation in 6 of the 11 finals since 2002 so hardly reigning supreme.

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[QUOTE=“Julio Geordio, post: 963627, member: 332”]I agree that Kerry have an easier path, all I was saying was that in the past when Ulster counties were going well this was seen as a disadvantage and why Kerry were losing in September. Now that they aren’t going well the tough championship is a millstone.

Ulster has not been the dominant province for the past twenty years. They won no All-Ireland between 1994 and 2002 and didn’t even have a team in the final after 1995 until 2002. They have been the dominant province since then alright although there has been no Ulster representation in 6 of the 11 finals since 2002 so hardly reigning supreme.[/QUOTE]

Ulster has had as many different semi-finalists as the all the other provinces combined in the past 12 years.

Down, Armagh, Fermanagh, Derry, Donegal and Tyrone have all made semi-final appearances in the past 10 years. From the other provinces Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Dublin, Kildare, Meath have appeared in All Ireland semi-finals. Some people will say that the qualifiers is the reason why these teams are there and in many cases it is the route they take but that would be missing the point. Every other team has the same opportunity through the qualifiers as Ulster sides have. There is a good depth of good teams in Ulster and the stats vouch for that in recent years, the fact that the qualifier route is the avenue which they undertake points to the imbalance in the provincial systems. The Provincial systems are traditional and I’d like to keep them but I think the qualifiers should attempt to redress the disadvantage Ulster counties have not to compound it.

Look at the hurling for example, would it be fair if Antrim and Down were guaranteed last 8 spots by beating the likes of Derry or Mayo in hurling while you had the potential of two of the Munster teams been drawn against each other in the first round qualifier game? I don’t think it would and the correlation to that hypothetical situation to the structure of the football qualifiers is apt.

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[QUOTE=“Il Bomber Destro, post: 963634, member: 2533”]Ulster has had as many different semi-finalists as the all the other provinces combined in the past 12 years.

Down, Armagh, Fermanagh, Derry, Donegal and Tyrone have all made semi-final appearances in the past 10 years. From the other provinces Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Dublin, Kildare, Meath have appeared in All Ireland semi-finals. Some people will say that the qualifiers is the reason why these teams are there and in many cases it is the route they take but that would be missing the point. Every other team has the same opportunity through the qualifiers as Ulster sides have. There is a good depth of good teams in Ulster and the stats vouch for that in recent years, the fact that the qualifier route is the avenue which they undertake points to the imbalance in the provincial systems. The Provincial systems are traditional and I’d like to keep them but I think the qualifiers should attempt to redress the disadvantage Ulster counties have not to compound it.

Look at the hurling for example, would it be fair if Antrim and Down were guaranteed last 8 spots by beating the likes of Derry or Mayo in hurling while you had the potential of two of the Munster teams been drawn against each other in the first round qualifier game? I don’t think it would and the correlation to that hypothetical situation to the structure of the football qualifiers is apt.[/QUOTE]

Galway and Antrim used to be straight into the semi/quarter finals and instead opted to go into Leinster in order to get more competitive games. So does that mean they were disadvantaged by having no competitive games??? :eek:

So the diverse spread of Ulster counties making the AI semi final shows how Ulster counties are suffering from the qualifiers how exactly?

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[QUOTE=“Julio Geordio, post: 963675, member: 332”]

So the diverse spread of Ulster counties making the AI semi final shows how Ulster counties are suffering from the qualifiers how exactly?[/QUOTE]
:smiley:

Poor bomber…:frowning:

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You seem to misunderstand competitiveness and quality a lot.
The biggest reason teams are losing in CP or in the qualifiers is because they are not good enough. How tough it is, is completely blown out of all proportion. Yes the games are physically draining and all that, but for FFS one or two teams at the absolute worst play 6-7 days after an Ulster game. And I think that’s even sorted now. You don’t need that long to recover, you’d be able to do a decent session again by Wednesday.
I’m telling you there are a lot tougher competitions out there.

The fact of the matter is right now the only Ukster team with a few game breakers and elite forward are Donegal. You only ever win the big ones with a few lads like this going well. It’s well documented who Turone and Armagh had in their successful years. With small picks compared to Cork, Mayo and especially Dublin they simply cannot expect to be consistantly in the mix. They’ll just have to work on another generation. The other thing that Hartes '98 group had was cruel hunger and momentum wand consistency with the coaching an all that. What they did was create a tradition, but that hunger to be the first Tyrone AI winners is gone forever now. It will take a similarly special bunch to get it back.

But believe me, Cork and Kerry people would be the first on board if they decided to go with 4 areas of 8 teams or something in the future as they is absolutely nothing to watch till August anymore. If you look at it another way the Ulster teams had an advantage with getting better competition before they got out.

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[QUOTE=“caoimhaoin, post: 963679, member: 273”]You seem to misunderstand competitiveness and quality a lot.
The biggest reason teams are losing in CP or in the qualifiers is because they are not good enough. How tough it is, is completely blown out of all proportion. Yes the games are physically draining and all that, but for FFS one or two teams at the absolute worst play 6-7 days after an Ulster game. And I think that’s even sorted now. You don’t need that long to recover, you’d be able to do a decent session again by Wednesday.
I’m telling you there are a lot tougher competitions out there.

The fact of the matter is right now the only Ukster team with a few game breakers and elite forward are Donegal. You only ever win the big ones with a few lads like this going well. It’s well documented who Turone and Armagh had in their successful years. With small picks compared to Cork, Mayo and especially Dublin they simply cannot expect to be consistantly in the mix. They’ll just have to work on another generation. The other thing that Hartes '98 group had was cruel hunger and momentum wand consistency with the coaching an all that. What they did was create a tradition, but that hunger to be the first Tyrone AI winners is gone forever now. It will take a similarly special bunch to get it back.

But believe me, Cork and Kerry people would be the first on board if they decided to go with 4 areas of 8 teams or something in the future as they is absolutely nothing to watch till August anymore. If you look at it another way the Ulster teams had an advantage with getting better competition before they got out.[/QUOTE]

Monaghan have a better forward line than Donegal.

The point I’m making relates to the potential banana skins Cork, Kerry and to a lesser extent Mayo avoid due to the provincial systems. They are pretty much guaranteed a last 8 or last 12 spot without any effort, they don’t have the potential banana skins along the way like they could get by drawing teams like Tyrone, Down, Armagh/Monaghan or Meath/Kildare in the early rounds of the qualifiers which I think is very unfair. There is an imbalance in the provincial system and I think this should be negated in the qualifiers. As much as possible teams from the same provinces should be stopped from meeting each other until the last 12/quarter final stage. I also believe the seeding system in Munster is very unfair on the smaller counties.

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[QUOTE=“Il Bomber Destro, post: 963699, member: 2533”]Monaghan have a better forward line than Donegal.

The point I’m making relates to the potential banana skins Cork, Kerry and to a lesser extent Mayo avoid due to the provincial systems. They are pretty much guaranteed a last 8 or last 12 spot without any effort, they don’t have the potential banana skins along the way like they could get by drawing teams like Tyrone, Down, Armagh/Monaghan or Meath/Kildare in the early rounds of the qualifiers which I think is very unfair. There is an imbalance in the provincial system and I think this should be negated in the qualifiers. As much as possible teams from the same provinces should be stopped from meeting each other until the last 12/quarter final stage. I also believe the seeding system in Munster is very unfair on the smaller counties.[/QUOTE]

Agreed re the seeding system in Munster, a farce.

You can’t facilitate the other idea due to the uneven number of teams involved.

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[QUOTE=“Il Bomber Destro, post: 963634, member: 2533”]Ulster has had as many different semi-finalists as the all the other provinces combined in the past 12 years.

Down, Armagh, Fermanagh, Derry, Donegal and Tyrone have all made semi-final appearances in the past 10 years. From the other provinces Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Dublin, Kildare, Meath have appeared in All Ireland semi-finals. .[/QUOTE]

How could you forget Wexford in 2008…

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[QUOTE=“Il Bomber Destro, post: 963699, member: 2533”]Monaghan have a better forward line than Donegal.

The point I’m making relates to the potential banana skins Cork, Kerry and to a lesser extent Mayo avoid due to the provincial systems. They are pretty much guaranteed a last 8 or last 12 spot without any effort, they don’t have the potential banana skins along the way like they could get by drawing teams like Tyrone, Down, Armagh/Monaghan or Meath/Kildare in the early rounds of the qualifiers which I think is very unfair. There is an imbalance in the provincial system and I think this should be negated in the qualifiers. As much as possible teams from the same provinces should be stopped from meeting each other until the last 12/quarter final stage. I also believe the seeding system in Munster is very unfair on the smaller counties.[/QUOTE]
It is in a way ya, but the counties themselves don’t help. They don’t really try to promote football in their counties and the total spend comparing hurling and football has a massive difference usually. And I’m not talking about the county team themselves. You can’t develop football by getting an outside coach and throwing 100k at the senior football team. This is not developing football. So until the individual CB’s start developing it properly the Munstet Coucil are, almost, right to look at it from a financial POV.
However more money needs to be given to these counties and shown to be put to football.
What’s unfair is on the senior set up themselves, they are a genuine complaint in Tipp, Clare, Waterford at least who seem to be making some kind of effort for the 2-3 main teams at Minor, 21 & Senior.
However looking at the bigger picture the individual CB’s have say on their hand for too long, it’s all they deserve.

The provincials are a load of shite anyway. The sooner they go the better for the game.

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[QUOTE=“Il Bomber Destro, post: 963568, member: 2533”]The B Side of this year’s All Ireland is very tough and you are bound to see some big teams fall at an early stage:

The first round of the qualifiers takes place in two weeks time where you will have

Down vs Leitrim
Tyrone vs Louth
Cavan vs Westmeath
Carlow vs Waterford

I would expect the three Ulster sides and Waterford to progress.

The second round you will see

Down
Tyrone
Cavan
Waterford

They will face the losing provincial semi-finalists

Roscommon
Meath/Kildare
Armagh/Monaghan
Kerry/Clare

My predicted draw:

Tyrone vs Armagh
Meath vs Cavan
Clare vs Down
Roscommon vs Waterford

The first two games could go either way but I would expect Tyrone, Meath, Down and Roscommon to progress. These four teams will go into the third round and face off with each other:

Predicted draw:

Tyrone vs Meath
Roscommon vs Down

Tyrone and Down progressing where they will face the provincial runners up from Leinster and Ulster who I will presume are Donegal and Kildare in the fourth round.

Predicted draw:

Down vs Kildare
Tyrone vs Donegal

I would tip Down and Kildare to progress to the quarter finals where they will then play the provincial champions of Ulster and Leinster (Dublin and Monaghan).

Predicted draw:

Tyrone vs Dublin
Kildare vs Monaghan

The semi-final side of the draw will see the winners of the quarter finals play each other:

Predicted draw:

Monaghan vs Dublin

Monaghan to progress to the final.

I think that just shows how ridiculously weighted this revamping of the qualifiers has been. Teams on the B side of the draw have definitely got the wrong end of the stick, particularly with the Ulster sides who have a gigantic task to even claim their provincial glory. The real winners in this draw are Cork, Kerry and Mayo who should all easily progress to the quarter final. Mayo winning Connacht handily and Cork and Kerry guaranteed a last 12 place where the only team the loser hopes to avoid is Derry and they have a 50% chance of drawing them should Derry make it that far. So in essence Cork, Kerry and Mayo can all conceivably make it into the last 8 without any real hassle of facing a big team in a knockout game. They can conceivably make the semis without a difficult game.

Just put the Munster scenario into perspective. Cork/Kerry can make the semi-final by beating Clare/Tipperary where they will then play themselves in a game where even a defeat leaves them in the last 12. The losing side will hope to avoid Derry while the rest of teams really should not be causing much hassle (Sligo, Galway, Tipperary, Limerick, London, Fermanagh, Antrim, Longford and Wexford). I’m not sure whether the provincial final can be repeated in the quarter final but one of Cork/Kerry/Mayo is bound to make a semi-final without having to win a meaningful game against anyone of note.[/QUOTE]

Could you redo that for the other side mate to show me who Wexford are likely to play next?

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I’ll do it tomorrow, pal. Do I get a prize if I correctly predict the outcome?

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Scumpot never told us his bird played rugby!